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AMD Motherboards & CPUs Questions or comments on AMD products?


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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 24th January, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Why is AMD Motherboards Being Censored?

I am a consumer, and NOT an employee of Epox. As a result I want the facts when I make my purchase decisions and not just a Corporate line. So why did the thread which revealed the Epox 8RDA+ and FIC AU11 to be the same board disappear? We all understand the Epox section has to be Epox super nice, but we were always told everything else belonged in these sections. Has that now changed?

Do we now have to pretend Epox is the only manufacturer in the world and does everything perfectly to post in ANY section of AOA Forums?
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Old 24th January, 2003, 11:25 PM
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Why the hostility?

I don't know why it isn't here anymore, but if it was removed then there was surely a good reason to it.. Its ok to ask, but please lose the hostile tone as it won't get you anywhere. Thank you.



Perhaps someone can shed some light on this?
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Old 25th January, 2003, 01:15 AM
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My question is NOT hostile. It is a question that deserves an answer. If the only acceptable posts in this Forum are those that put Epox in a good light, then we deserve to know that. You also need to CLEARLY post Forum Rules which state that is the case, because that is NOT what is posted here at this moment. Then we will know to look and post elsewhere for objective testing and commentary.

People seem to get banned here for asking the wrong Epox questions. Certainly we deserve to know why a HUGE thread - the largest and most popular in this section - which detailed some less than flattering information about Epox - got deleted.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 01:31 AM
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No, your question in itself was not hostile - but your tone is. Please reread your own words and tell me they were not the least hostile.

As I said, I do not know the answer to your question. But I DO know that people do not get banned for asking the wrong questions. People get banned for violating our forum rules, and it is not our policy to ban people without a warning. If people ignore the warning then so be it. Its their call, not ours.

Thank you for your understanding.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 01:47 AM
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I do understand, Allan, that you don't have the answer to my question. I do hope that whoever deleted the thread can give us some insight as to why this action was necessary. It may not be censorship, but it certainly looks that way without answers - particularly when a respected member was banned last night for his posts in that thread. I understand that has now been reversed, which makes deleting the thread even more puzzling. I will trust you that answers will be posted.

Thank you.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 03:53 AM
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Well in the first place your not our consumers here, your our product. I sell access to you. That's not the way I normally look at my friends... but it's a fact of life @ AOA as it is elsewhere.

Another fact of life is that while the forums as a whole are indeed less restrictive, they to remain governed by rules which are just as vigorously enforced as those in the EPoX topic. Nothing has changed at AOA

"Do we now have to pretend Epox is the only manufacturer in the world and does everything perfectly to post in ANY section of AOA Forums?"

This would be a far more interesting question if It were in search of an answer rather than an accusation? I did (or so you think) something you didn't agree with or like. You would express your displeasure by pretending that this is or might be a pattern of ill treatment and abuse, which you are obligated to "Look into"... For "us"

That would all be well and good with me.

Except for the following

I have friends who work for EPoX. I built this forums for myself and my friends. I built it so that we might meet in a pleasant atmosphere and enjoy our selves however we might.

A person was accusing EPoX with out proof of fraud. Deliberate Fraud. He offered no proof of his claim. This serves to anger me in the same way as it would slandering an individual, as there individuals who are present who work for and must represent EPoX in a forum they help build...

Not for EPoX but for themselves and for the people they know here at AOA. This IS their forum's home. Holst was a member here long before he was an Employee at EPoX. He was helping to build AOA long before he was Helping to build EPoX. I Knew ET years before He was Employed by EPoX.This Site is about friends and online family.


It was a needless injury given without proof. And it violates the spirit of AOA.

If you want to say a board's slow of it lacks this feature or that is fails to measure up to an Asus, that's fine and you know it. If you want to accuse EPoX of widespread fraud then do so in a legal affidavit and not in this forum. EPoX employees are my friends and the friends of many here. I will not allow AOA to be used to spread malicious gossip about them. They helped to build AOA from Scratch and will not receive that type of treatment from us.

You got a news clipping from a reliable source you want to put up which say EPoX is being sue for such and such, It can stay up. But accusations made without proof jeopardize the happiness of my friends.

Then the thread took the direction of this one. With you interpreting my actions and telling me where I've gone wrong. And what I "Should " do.

What you simply ignore was that the thread was 6 pages long and permitted every form of speculation on this subject. Until slander was committed.

There was no probation against reopening or discussing the subject.

A member posted in a way I consider to needlessly ill mannered and offensive toward my self. I banned him. Upon reflection, While angered by his post I decide I had made a Judicial error and re-instated him. For which I do not apologize. I was a judgment call. I might well reverse myself if I had to do it again tomorrow.

In any case his post is in my view outside the parameters set up for the forum as a whole. But I did not delete it, nor remove the thread.

It WAS outside the parameters of our forum rules as a whole.

For this reason an admin who came across it removed it. I saw no reason to reverse his decision.This was After I reinstated the person in question. That was after I removed my post to him and to yourself.

In short except for your post he found it as I found it and removed it as objectionable and in violation of forums rules as a whole, doing no one any good..

If you wish to start a new thread you may do so.

BTW, You are Prometheus, you are not "US" I owe you no answers. If you like AOA please stay, If you don't like AOA please leave.

If you would like to Ask about something or change something at AOA please learn to ask politely as one asking a favor, because I owe you nothing.

Membership, Staff, Admin and I have built AOA the way it is because it pleases us. We open it to the public because we enjoy the company. No one here is in a position to make demands upon us. Or If you insist upon myself.

Now please don't come asking for a super clarification of the rules. This is a matter of the heart. Two EPoX employees are AOA membership's friends. AOA Membership does not want to see them totally needlessly made uncomfortable by completely unsubstantiated accusations. I think I'm a far better position to gauge AOA membership's feeling on this than you are.

To the AOA I care about, ET and Holst are friends and family. I am friends and family. The only way a person really joins AOA is as friends and family. We welcome new members in the hopes they will wish to become friends and family.

Is this any way to run a forum? I don't know. But it's the only forum I want to run. It's a forum who arrived at it current form by my edit, Vote by Staff and on occasion vote by membership at large.

It has worked well for us. We are happy here. We have plans for the future which engage us. This is the best answer I know how to give you. I hope you will see that this is a situation that exists outside of the box. You will have to look outside of the box to understand the intricacies in play.

These people posting here do not see themselves as my opposition by as a part of AOA's family and friends. I act to create an order which allows them to create a forums that suits them.

When people wish to create a forum which lies outside the order I maintain, they are asked to go elsewhere, for the forum they would create would damage the forums that is, and is, as I mentioned, making us happy.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 25th January, 2003, 04:11 AM
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I recall the thread, and I have to agree with Daniel~. There were definitely accusations about improprieties, which is ridiculous. Anyone who claims to know about building PCs and considers rebadging unethical or a violation of law, is only stating his ignorance.

Major component mfgrs have been rebadging components for years for various reasons... most of which are marketing bases, or econ of scale, or sharing of tech thru partnerships... or plain building brand name.... If I recall correctly, Prometheus, you were very level headed, and said something to that extent too. (Very well said, I might add.)

I think that thread had merit, but the valuable information was lost in a sea of anger. As such, it was doing more harm than good.

If rebadging were really a crime, there'd be a lot of execs in jail.... Abit, ECS, PC-Chips, Antec, CWT, TurboLink, Sony, Pioneer, Lite-on.... Actually, if we made a list of companies that never rebadged in technology, it would be a lot shorter..

Is it just me, or when people know in advance, they buy the less expensive version, but when the pay more and think there's a cheaper 'duplicate' available, they scream bloody murder and call for a lynch mob??? (this seems to be common)
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Old 25th January, 2003, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteveI
I recall the thread, and I have to agree with Daniel~. There were definitely accusations about improprieties, which is ridiculous.

I think that thread had merit, but the valuable information was lost in a sea of anger. As such, it was doing more harm than good.
My wife read that thread last night and thought that most people were being way to emotional, juvinile, and niaeve. Rebadgeing goes on all the time and as long as you are happy with your purchase befor you found out it was rebadged why should you be unhappy with it after you found out if it still performse the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by SteveI


Is it just me, or when people know in advance, they buy the less expensive version, but when the pay more and think there's a cheaper 'duplicate' available, they scream bloody murder and call for a lynch mob??? (this seems to be common)
It is not always best to go with the cheapest product. Part of what you are buying is tech support, software and driver support, and warrenty service.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 04:42 AM
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There SHOULD be a lot more Execs in jails, as we are sorely discovering in the current economic morass of stock fraud, insider trading, and abused golden parachutes!

If you recall I was one who said this was common practice in the computer industry and people were making too much of it. The person banned and reinstated was NOT the one bringing up the English "law" argument - which was interesting but way too emotional.

The thread was interesting, Daniel, and there WAS useful info. I do believe it would have been more prudent to remove the offending posts, post in the thread stating what you did, and that's the end of it. That's MY opinion as a moderator on other Forums facing these same types of issues. I truly believe straightforward honesty and VISIBLE actions always wins over slash and silence.

Thank you for your explanation, but there were IMHO better ways to handle the "problem". That is my opinion as an AOA member, and I do understand you are AOA staff.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 07:01 AM
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Then if that's the case why didn't you come to me in these forums as a friend and ask me why I acted as I did? Even If I acted as you thought I did.

Why all the WE have a RIGHT and Censorship hype you posted like you wanted to lead a revolution. When you don't even know what the government is. I would never come into your forum and tell you what I thought you should be doing. If I didn't like what I saw I would ask sincere questions, If I didn't like the answers I would leave.

I would not get in a huff over a single incident of which I had incomplete information, jump to several there fore faulty conclusions making demands upon people who owe me nothing.

Then Spout off about having a policy that (no doubt by inference) We do not, one of straight frowardness and honesty! But you are here and you have not been straight forward.

You did not want a open and straightforward answer when you got one that was perfectly straight forward and honest, your recommendation is that we be straight forward and honest.

You would allow a friend to be inured and your forums to become exceedingly unpleasant for the vast majority of your closest members ?You would have done differently. Why didn't you simply ask questions in a respectful manner, if you felt I was open to it, gently suggest such change and improvement as you fell beneficial.?.

Instead you launch an Inquisition that even the title of the thread speaks your intended conclusion. But you would do things differently, you believe in being straight forward..... honest.

You tell me, as if I didn't know, as if I hadn't posted paragraphs in that thread, that it is of value. That you would have done differently. I do not second guess admin, they make there own decisions.

I obviously would have left it as I did so. So what? The Thread became in violation when two people took it there. Once there it's fair game for any to report it and several did and for admin to maintain the peace of our forums. Admin rarely act in the forum as most things can await my discresion. This was felt to be particularly griviouse. I concurr.

It so happens that the thread was not deleted but move to another hard drive space. I am the one who decides how it is to be handled. I deliberately decided to take several days to do so. That has not changed.

I do not ask for advice from membership as to how to conduct myself or my staff.

We are professional. We are wildly successful at what we do.

I simply don't need your advice. You need to look at your entire approach as it contradicts what you say YOU would have done.

I'm not at all interested in the forums others build, I don't think they need all want or be the same. As I told you earlier we like the way we do things, so do our members, once they take the time to understand the way we do things.

How Do I know? because it stands to reason that they will leave if their needs for such a forums are poorly met. Any longtime member here can tell you I'm approachable. My Staff is approachable

You should have asked questions, not made demands. It just plain Gosh to announce your a moderator and show off you moderating acume by telling us all what you would have done.

Well you see we don't have mods. Admin's don't do anything permeate. He moved it to where I could handle it. As it was, he felt, something I should see before others did. He did his job. I'm doing mine. I'm considering it.

Had you only asked a few straight forward and honest questions.....
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 25th January, 2003, 03:40 PM
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People do not always have to agree on everything to remain friends :beer:
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Old 25th January, 2003, 04:08 PM
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Prometheus, when you've finished fashioning men and tricking gods...

I was the one who deleted the thread. Originally I was going to try and post something lighthearted in there, but decided that it was rather past having such things thrown in there.

It was not (and still is not) my intention to "censor" topics on AOA, not least the AMD motherboard topic. However, in this world, I feel that people also have a responsibility towards each other. AOA is not a forum to threaten lawsuits - this places a serious risk of AOA being dragged into such issues, and I'm pretty sure we don't want to get involved in the laws of various countries around the world! Well, I guess setting ourselves up as lawyers would bring in the money!

Not only is rebranding common in the computer industry, but also the white goods, where it is amazing just how many items are sold by different manufacturers. This goes as much for wireless network cards as it does for electric drills and 'fridges.

As the discussion had decended into something that I could only really describe as a quasilegal farce, which benefitted nobody, least of all the contributers. Hence, in my haste, I removed the entire thread, rather than deleting the afflicted posts.

Thanks for the feedback - it is handy to know how things look to other people who aren't on the staff.

Áedán
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Old 25th January, 2003, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Áedán
Prometheus, when you've finished fashioning men and tricking gods... Áedán
. . . but Zeus deserved to be tricked - he took ordinary humans for granted and was abusing mankind . . .

You have my complete blessing to delete this thread that I started. Enough has been said. Thank you.
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Old 25th January, 2003, 07:46 PM
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Just look at what I started by posting that thread....
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Old 27th January, 2003, 03:40 PM
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I havnt been a forum member for long, but i have enjoyed coming to this forum and just reading the post people have made.

I can fully understand what Daniel is trying to achieve here but I have noticed as time is going on that there is a substantial increase in the feeling that there is a 'bigbrother' in this forum looking over our every move.

Whilst this is totally within AOA rights the fact that this is being drummed into us constantly on a daily basis is most unsettling.

I found it more enjoyable in the past seeing that these forums were moderated 'correctly' i knew i could come here and avoid the blatent flaming going on in other forums, but im sorry to say that i think things are going a little overboard.

Surely an email or PM to the member who is abusing the forum is more in place. Do we 'members' have to see this act and feel this intimadation. Thats how it feels to me and i dont like it.

Now u may say to me if you dont like it u can leave. But is that how one goes about making friends? Daniel you talk about friends and family alot and i agree they are the important things in most peoples lives. But friends are friends because we have experiences with them and have been together through the good and bad times. Thats what makes these relationships special, the same with family. Do we never have disagreements with our family and friends? Do we ban them when we disagree with them?
My post is not only referring to this thread but from what i have experinced in coming here for the past few months. I wish to keep coming here to read and enjoy the company here but it is becoming more difficult with having to see the constant reminder that opinions are restricted to what 'bigbrother' deems 'correct'.

This is your place and your home the people who made it and sustain it but please i believe you are distancing many ordinary people like myself; people with the fear of not being able to express concerns and opinions to other 'friends'

Thanxs 4 ya time
I hope u can understand a members point of view.
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Old 27th January, 2003, 04:12 PM
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Dresuk,

With all due respect for your post, the topic that has the most "strict" rules is the EPoX topic. It just so happens that there have been a number of people who might not have read the rules, or may not have realised which topic the post they were responding to was in.

I have no problems with friends agreeing to disagree. In fact, having people having differing points of view is really good stuff, otherwise we'd just become another bunch of sheep!

On the other hand, I don't see that friends would threaten to take one another to court, especially not in a public place. That is no longer friendship, but an out-and-out attack on someone. Once such a deeds have been done, it is difficult to retract them. It is even worse when the people involved continue along this line.

Personally, I rarely remove threads, unless they're patently illegal or very abusive. Obviously I cannot speak for the other people here!

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Old 27th January, 2003, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by K6-III
Just look at what I started by posting that thread....
Heh, fortunatly no-one holds you responsible for what other people decide to post! That would be very worrying otherwise!

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Old 27th January, 2003, 04:26 PM
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i cant even fathom how tiresome it must be to moderate these forums.....

while i appreciate the good job you moderators do i certainly do not envy you. fortunately, you have more patience than i do.
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Old 27th January, 2003, 04:27 PM
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Áedán

Thanxs for taking the time to read my post. Can u understand though the point im trying to get across? Is it not possible to warn peeps in a way that we dont have to be subjected to their and your actions.

The amount of threads where Daniel has took it upon himself to answer in the fashion of the response above which all members are subjected to read is beginning to drag me down a little, if you know what i mean.

Could he not email or PM them with his response. Do we have to see this ALL the time. I for one can understand his response and his manner but Its making this forum feel a little hostile which is not y i come here.



I hope you can appreciate my concerns
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Old 27th January, 2003, 05:36 PM
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Yes you do. It's a natural part of any forum. I ban far more people than I close threads. I edit posts when I can to avoid moving them. I move them when Editing would destroy the thread or be to time consuming.

I post my edit message so I do not have to personally interdict everyone who posts with out knowing or understanding some of our rules.
What you see, others see and those I need not correct. I believe there are better ways than correcting people to get to know them. Also if you read here regularly there has been and will be those who wish to comment upon those I ban.

When ever possible I leave the offending post up. I wish membership to know WHY I ban. In that is at lest as important as the fact that I ban.

Those posts are as much a part of the reality of AOA as the joke Topic or the Files Download site. I noticed that you are not, nor are the others posting here in this thread afraid to speak your mind.

So Those who disagree with me do not necessarily get ban. But some who disagree with me do get ban.

Do not fear me, fear the way you disagree with me. For the way you disagree with me is the only thing that will get you ban. Breaking our rules with deliberation, is the only thing that will get you ban.

When I alone wield power I feel it's especially important that it is known how and when I wield it. If you know the train comes at 5:00 everyday, it's horrendous power to kill and mangle, frighten less. If you know it runs upon a track it never leaves, still less frightening.

It's power is undiminished, yet made tolerable, even enjoyable by our being able to predict it's actions.

I try my very best to be predictable. I secretly believe I am predictable. Both in terms of when I will intercede and how. Once is, in the very vast majority of cases, enough. Indeed at the first correction one often learns if the person understands rules and the necessity for their existence and enforcement.

To enjoy AOA even in the face of the carnage that is sometime wrought, one must understand the rules and personally will there enforcement.
They have to become your rules.

Not everyone wants to communicate according to the same rules. AOA's rules probably won't be changing much. They are good, they are just. They are what AOA is told over and over again makes this an enjoyable experience for most people. They are a picket fence between the civil and the uncivil. Like a picket fence those who enforce any body of rules are always going to stick out.
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 27th January, 2003 at 05:45 PM.
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