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AMD Motherboards & CPUs Questions or comments on AMD products?


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 27th April, 2004, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
lol i was talking about the cpu in my sig.
the 2600 has to be burned in before i overclock
this 2400 has to replace the 2600 so i am setting up this machine first..thanks for the info tho.. imean to buy a 64 shuttle, and now i'll watch and see whic procs come to the local supplier
OH! Sorry. I understand now.
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Old 27th April, 2004, 09:14 PM
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exactly and when they use a new method of production(isn't 13nm about to be phased out?) that allows them to clock equally as fast as Intel there will be some serious "new front-runnership" going on =-O.
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Old 27th April, 2004, 10:39 PM
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so it seems as though this processor was meant to be a 2700+
they weren't able to...
it must not be able to run @ 266mhz 2600+ speeds, or you would think they would leave it that way.
multi must be 12.5
12.5x133=1662.5= 2000+ hmmmm..one of those great 2100+'s?(hence why i said overclocked from factory)
this makes me hope i can take it way high...but we will see.
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Old 28th April, 2004, 02:15 AM
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Just to put my .02 worth in, I have heard or read in product litarature that all the AMD processors are 'supposed' to be capable of hitting between 2 and 3 Ghz from factory, but when they go into post,as you all have stated, they sort them according to working ability. And, seeing as Intel and I think AMD have already debuted their .09 micron technology that it would certainly usher in the death knell of the .13micron, just as it pushed out the .18micron (cough cough) after they worked the bugs out of the manufacturing process. We all know how that has worked. They haven't even gotten the .13 straight and they want to push it. Personally, I am awaiting with panting breath, the chips designed by Motorola 2 years ago that ran in the Terrahertz range (yes, that is right, you heard me say it, terrahertz). If you read up on engineering journals they did it two years ago and have been trying to come up with an affordable production process and a suitable marketing time to release such a chip. The only problem is, you are more likely to see that chip on a cell phone years before it makes it to market for ANY desktop computer (at least that was their plan 2 years ago, to put them in cell phones and then market the Technology to either processor companies for bid or produce a line themselves). As I have ever to hear of an effort to make that jump, you just might, in maybe 4-6 years be using an Intel Terrahertz chip or an AMD (depending, again, cough cough, [Intel] on who has deeper pockets at the time). Which really is a shame, because I would like to see AMD spank Intel once and for all!!!!
Tim
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Old 28th April, 2004, 04:26 PM
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cell phones operate in a certain wavelength..like cordless phones..and broadcast over a range or RADIO frequencies. i believe the chip you were talking about was allowing was in that regard, kinda like a 900mhz cordless and a 2.4ghz cordless..these are merely the frequency that the phones braodcast at. The higher the frequency the more bandwidth(info) the can broadcast, for things like PDA's and text messaging. the one downfall of cellphones is that they are almost @ the max of data that they can send @ the frequency they are @. Radio waves DO NOT hold alot of info.
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Old 28th April, 2004, 04:49 PM
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I believe they are referring to different applications of frequency. Isn't this just used as a measurement of how many cycles in a period in the shape of a sine wave? In the case of mobile phones its a broadcast frequency not unlike that of analog cable, where you measure speed in baud, however once a signal is in your computer, its in binary rather than baud? I'm sorta shooting around the point here because I'm not sure how to put into words what I'm thinking, if someone picks up on it feel free to compelete my point :P.

***edit***
maybe this will help:
One is a measure of work(processor) and the other of transmission(mobile signal)?
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Old 28th April, 2004, 08:20 PM
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Actually, you are both right.

A little background first, for the electronically challenged:

ANY device that uses electricity is capable of generating electromagnetic energy. MOST devices are capable of generating electromagnetic energy in the portion of the spectrum we refer to as radio or microwave. The exact frequency of the energy generated depends on a lot of things. Every electromagnetic wave has a characteristic period (or frequency) and amplitude (or energy). This is known as the fundamental. For pure sine waves, the fundamental is the only frequency that exists. For waves of other shapes (square, triangle, sawtooth), you have the fundamental and one or more harmonics. The harmonics are where things get really interesting, because they are almost always at a higher frequency than the fundamental, and they almost always contain less energy than the fundamental but they also have the ability to propagate.

Getting back to the issue at hand, square waves in problematic in particular because they are very rich in harmonics. As an example, when you set your FSB to 200 Mhz, you are generating a square wave at 200 MHz. This will, in and of itself, generate harmonics at 600, 1000, 1400, and 1800 Hz (there will be higher ones, but generally by the time you get to the 4th harmonic you've got all the interesting stuff). However, because the signal is not a sine wave, you also have to look at the edge rate (the rate at which the square wave changes state from high to low, also called the slew rate). These systems use signals that have an edge at 200 MHz that is in the realm of 400 or so pS (pico-Seconds, or 1 trillionth of a second). That translates to a period of about 2.5 GHz, with harmonics at 7.5, 12.5, 17.5, and 22.5 GHz. This puts us well into the realm of microwave energy. You can also see that this can have a devastating effect on anything that happens to be operating in those same ranges, like cell phones and cordless telephones.

So, what do we do? Enter the spread spectrum setting in a lot of PC bioses. Although we can't change the edge rate of the signal, we can change the interval at which those signals occur. For example, even though the edge is 2.5 GHz, it IS the edge or transistion signal. That means that we get a burst of energy at 2.5 GHz and its harmonics EVERY TIME the base 200 MHz clock changes state. In addition to that, we've got the energy of the base 200 MHz clock to contend with. We can alleviate this if we make slight changes in the frequency of the 200 MHz clock. By shifting the frequency around, we can cause those 2.5 GHz bursts to occur it irregular intervals so that they no longer reinforce each other. In addition, we can cause the 200 MHz energy to shift around so that, although it is present in a larger portion of the spectrum, there is less of it in any given place, rather like spreading butter on a slice of bread.

If you have followed me this far and your eyes haven't rolled back into your skull, then next logical question is "What does this frequency shifting do to the stability of my system?" GLAD YOU ASKED! If you aren't overclocking, then the odds are that it won't affect you at all. But if you ARE overclocking, these abrupt frequency changes can have an adverse affect on the stability of your system. That is why overclockers almost always turn this feature off in their BIOS.
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Old 28th April, 2004, 09:06 PM
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i know that cell phones and such are large issues with monitors and such because of this, and i think that this is the reason that cable is going highdef, as digital is @ a much higher frequency, as because the harmonics @ this higherfrequency allows more content to be pushed without causing feedback. ??
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Old 28th April, 2004, 09:30 PM
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No, you are mistaken, I am well aware of the wavelengths involved. The chip I am referring to ran in the terrahertz range in CPU terms, not wavelength. Go back 2 years in Engineering Digest and it was an article specific to the wars of the Gigahertz chips that Intel and AMD were coming out with. Come on guys, I don't have my degree yet but I do have 2 years of engineering under my belt, I am not stupid and I did NOT misinterpret what I read. Whether you want to bewlieve it or not, a Terrahertz "Speed" chip does in fact exist. Don't believe me if you don't want, but don't act like I am some orphan idiot that cannot read and interpret information.
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Old 28th April, 2004, 09:57 PM
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ok...who pissed in everybody's corn flakes this morn?
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Old 29th April, 2004, 01:07 AM
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Don't ask me, I stated a fact that I read in an engineering journal and all of a sudden I am being hit with this garbage that i cannot make the distiction between the wavelengths sent through the air and those used to transmit data in a CPU. And yes, the FCC, in 1998, passed a law that by 2006 all or most communications should be of the High Def or digital highband frequency to eliminate lower level signals overriding each other (due to the propogation of cell phones and the needed space for tranmitted data). As I am sure most of us know, a signal sent in digital at 2.4 Ghz can pass much more data than an analogue signal sent in the Mhz range. That signal compaction and lessening of interference was the reason for that law. However, I do not beilieve that they expected the rate of expansion for these technologies, as more and more, you see interference in even the higher bands of transmission. And as for who pissed in my cornflakes, personally, this morning, you will have to thank my ex-wife for that.
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Old 29th April, 2004, 01:38 AM
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i then believe..lol (like i started a previous post that lead way far away) you are talking about "cell" processors, that mare actually many mini processors that can interact and exchange data within a 16 or 32 "cell" grouping, giving for higher "cpu mhz", as hyper-threading(moving remainders betwenn processing sections as i understand it) becomes ultra-hyper-threading..imagine 16 processors crunching the same pi calculation simulatneously, co-indepentantly
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Old 29th April, 2004, 01:41 AM
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No, actually the article made rather light of the so called strides that Intel and AMD were making. Motorola specifically stated they had already blown them away, but would withold the technology due to the aforementioned reasons.
Tim
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Old 29th April, 2004, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMa2969
No, you are mistaken, I am well aware of the wavelengths involved. The chip I am referring to ran in the terrahertz range in CPU terms, not wavelength. Go back 2 years in Engineering Digest and it was an article specific to the wars of the Gigahertz chips that Intel and AMD were coming out with. Come on guys, I don't have my degree yet but I do have 2 years of engineering under my belt, I am not stupid and I did NOT misinterpret what I read. Whether you want to bewlieve it or not, a Terrahertz "Speed" chip does in fact exist. Don't believe me if you don't want, but don't act like I am some orphan idiot that cannot read and interpret information.
Tim
As someone involved in obtaining a science based degree you should appreciate that not all statements are valid and the assertion that a particular claim is, does nothing to discover validity.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" would seem to apply here.

This has nothing to do with personalties. As far as I can see you were treated in a respectful manner by several people, despite the extraordinary claim that was made, one of whom in fact is a degreed engineer.

One cannot dismiss the response's of others seeking clarification as garbage being dumped and at the same time demand respect, at lest not with any real hope of communicating in a reasonable manner.

Bottom line, you could do us a real service by finding and presenting a reliable source of information on this that is more readily accessible to these forums.

Lastly science should never ask for nor offer belief in place of knowable fact.
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Old 29th April, 2004, 02:29 AM
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JMa - do you think you could find that article and post a link to it? It would definitely make for some interesting reading. I did a quick search with Google, but didn't turn up anything readily. 'Course, searching for 'thz motorola processor' is pretty generic. I DID find references to AMD having produced an experimental 3.3 THz transistor using a new process.
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Old 29th April, 2004, 02:34 AM
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I am actually trying it right now. I have found a few references to "supersecret government TRZ processors" that i am taking to be hogwash. As I remember (it has been two years ago) they were not using copper but another metallic alloy and a synthetic barrier to prevent electron bleed (Copper and silicon didn't cut it, that was the holdup in production, just like you can get gold from pennies, but the chemical used to get it costs way more than the gold produced, type thing). Give me time, and I will see what i can turn up.
Tim
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Old 29th April, 2004, 03:10 AM
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News Topic for Discussion

Intel Redesign May Produce TeraHertz Chips
Posted by Brian Proffitt on 11/26/01 @ 6:21 am

Intel Corporation today announced that its researchers have developed a new transistor structure and new materials that could represent a dramatic improvement in transistor speed, power efficiency, and heat reduction.

The technology development is an important milestone in the effort to maintain the pace of Moore's Law and remove the technical barriers that Intel and the semiconductor industry have only recently begun to identify.

"Our research has shown that we can continue to make smaller and faster transistors, but there are fundamental problems we need to address around power consumption, heat generation, and current leakage," said Gerald Marcyk, director of components research, Intel Labs. "Our goal is to overcome these barriers and produce chips that have 25 times the number of transistors of today's microprocessors at ten times the speed with no increase in power consumption."

As semiconductors become more complex and new milestones in transistor size and performance are achieved, power consumption and heat have recently emerged as limiting factors to the continued pace of chip design and manufacturing. Applying existing designs to future processors becomes unworkable because of current leakage in the transistor structure, which in turn requires more power and generates more heat.

"Smaller and faster just isn't good enough anymore," Marcyk said. "Power and heat are the biggest issues for this decade. What we are doing with our new transistor structure is helping make devices that are extremely power efficient, concentrating electrical current where it's needed."

The new structure is being called the Intel TeraHertz transistor because the transistors will be able to switch on and off more than one trillion times per second.

One element of the new structure is a "depleted substrate transistor," which is a new type of CMOS device where the transistor is built in an ultra-thin layer of silicon on top of an embedded layer of insulation. This ultra-thin silicon layer, which is different than conventional silicon-on-insulator devices, is fully depleted to create maximum drive current when the transistor is turned on, enabling the transistor to switch on and off faster.

In contrast, when the transistor is turned off, unwanted current leakage is reduced to a minimum level by the thin insulating layer. This allows the depleted substrate transistor to have 100 times less leakage than traditional silicon-on-insulator schemes. Another innovation of Intel's depleted substrate transistor is the incorporation of low resistance contacts on top of the silicon layer. The transistor can therefore be very small, very fast, and consume less power.

Another key element is the development of a new material that replaces silicon dioxide on the wafer. All transistors have a gate-dielectric, a material that separates a transistor's gate from its active region. The record-setting transistors introduced in the past year had gate dielectrics made of silicon dioxide that are only 0.8 nanometers, or approximately three atomic layers thick. However, the leakage through this atomically thin insulator layer is becoming one of the largest sources of power consumption of chips.

Intel researchers will soon demonstrate record speed for transistors made with a new type of material called a "high k gate dielectric." One such demonstration is expected to occur this week at the International Electron Devices conference in Washington, DC.

This new material reduces gate leakage by more than 10,000 times compared to silicon dioxide. The high k gate material is grown by a new technology called "atomic layer deposition" in which the new material can be grown in layers only one molecule thick at a time. The result is higher performance, reduction of heat, and significantly longer battery life for mobile applications.

Intel is expected to begin incorporating elements of this new structure into its product line as early as 2005.



This is one reputable article I found that eludes to what I was talking about earlier that Intel is working on the terrahertz problem in the manner I (not very well) stated earlier. However, as I did a project for one of my Engineering classes and it is in my portfolio on this subject, I will (in 2 or three weeks, and do not worry, I don't forget) post the paper that i wrote at that time on the subject and as per standards, all references are contained in the body of the paper. You may think this is dreamland for me, but I don't have access to my stuff at the present. As soon as I do my portfolio is there, and the paper I wrote was saved in the portfolio. I cannot at this time discover the whereabouts (even going back to the college online catalogue where I attended, but I thought that would be a longshot as it was a periodical and they seldom keep those on file, however, look up The Terrahertz Project, and Tri-Gate transistors and you will get the gist of what was said in the article). I WILL post ASAP. And Daniel, if you have a problem with me, ban me, but don't flaut anyones degree. I respect degree's, but don't live by them as having been a construction project superintendant and working with many Civil Engineers I know the degree is worth what the person is. This is said with no disrespect intended, but if you want to ban me for my feelings on this matter, GO FOR IT!!!!!
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Old 29th April, 2004, 03:13 AM
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Thanks Tim, as Gizmo points out there more than a little interest!
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Old 29th April, 2004, 03:30 AM
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Smile

Thank you for not banning me. I was not sure how that last remark I made would come off. I am presently having "Difficulties" (not looking for sympathy, but personal, that is why I do not have my portfolio here), but expect them to clear in around two to three weeks depending on courts. That is why the protfolio (being held hostage along with my musical equipment :-(....) is not here with me. But as it was a basic engineering course and I was still trying to find my way (wondering if I should go into my passion for computers or my knowledge of construction) I was dabbling in computer engineering ltaerature and came across what I thought was a remarkable article. Can Motorola back up it's claims, who knows. All I know is what I remember from two years ago about the article (does anyone else here hate microsoft keyboards or is it just my stumble fingers?). ASAP posted, assured, word for word, and if I DID misremember something, then my bad. But I am not that far gone. BTW, someone mentioned in one of these boards how to burn in a CPU properly to gain max Mghz. Please if you read this PM me. I just bought the big one and sprung for a DFI NFII Ultra Infinity and an AMD 2500XP-M. I would like to know the best operating temp for a proper burn in of such a processor. Thanks;
Tim
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Old 29th April, 2004, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMa2969
News Topic for Discussion

Intel Redesign May Produce TeraHertz Chips
Posted by Brian Proffitt on 11/26/01 @ 6:21 am

This is one reputable article I found that eludes to what I was talking about earlier that Intel is working on the terrahertz problem in the manner I (not very well) stated earlier. However, as I did a project for one of my Engineering classes and it is in my portfolio on this subject, I will (in 2 or three weeks, and do not worry, I don't forget) post the paper that i wrote at that time on the subject and as per standards, all references are contained in the body of the paper. You may think this is dreamland for me, but I don't have access to my stuff at the present. As soon as I do my portfolio is there, and the paper I wrote was saved in the portfolio. I cannot at this time discover the whereabouts (even going back to the college online catalogue where I attended, but I thought that would be a longshot as it was a periodical and they seldom keep those on file, however, look up The Terrahertz Project, and Tri-Gate transistors and you will get the gist of what was said in the article). I WILL post ASAP. And Daniel, if you have a problem with me, ban me, but don't flaut anyones degree. I respect degree's, but don't live by them as having been a construction project superintendant and working with many Civil Engineers I know the degree is worth what the person is. This is said with no disrespect intended, but if you want to ban me for my feelings on this matter, GO FOR IT!!!!!
Trust me, when I feel someone needs banning I don't wait for their permission to do so. If you read back a bit it wasn't I who made use of credentials rather than proof to strengthen my argument.

I merely wanted you to appreciate that there are those who (even if I am not) are capable of appreciating and evaluating what ever you might wish to offer in this regard. While I appreciate your past experience and your educational attainment neither further your assertion, which as I mentioned is what is of interest to me here.

Thank you for taking the time to find the article on Intel, it is, at lest for me, a real eye opener!

BTW We are not what might be called a hostile forums. No one wants to see you proven wrong or brought down.
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 29th April, 2004 at 03:43 AM.
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