AOA Forums AOA Forums AOA Forums Folding For Team 45 AOA Files Home Front Page Become an AOA Subscriber! UserCP Calendar Memberlist FAQ Search Forum Home


Go Back   AOA Forums > Hardware > AMD Motherboards & CPUs

AMD Motherboards & CPUs Questions or comments on AMD products?


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12th June, 2013, 05:46 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Learned today those Radeon 7770 stream processors are probably of little value under WinXP since there's no OCL support. So, either I'm able to integrate Win7 into my environment, or I might as well return the card. Something to work on!
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12th June, 2013, 04:42 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

Your card only works properly under Win 7????

What the hell was Radeon thinking??
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 14th June, 2013, 07:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

The Radeon cards work normally as video cards, but it appears the recently developed open computing language that formalizes their access for use as coprocessors requires Win7 or later (same for Nvidia's Cudas I'm sure). I suppose it's not really a big surprise since WinXP hasn't had anything other than security updates for years and brand new capabilities are likely to become marketing bait for the most recent OS. It just hadn't occurred to me that the first standardized language for accessing both "Stream Processors" and "Cudas" wouldn't be there to help leverage my new cruncher! No doubt Linux faces the same issue, lack of OCL support.

I just yesterday did my first install of a 64 bit OS (Win7) on my new cruncher and today finished solving what I hope were all the complications. Had to pull my Maxtor/Promise dual IDE card since I just can't find a compatible 64 bit driver. Fortunately, the Startech I bought earlier includes an appropriate driver, so no loss of functionality yet (had me going for awhile though). Learned how to get file sharing working with my other LAN PC's and so Win7 is becoming almost tractable .
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 14th June, 2013, 01:03 PM
chrisbard's Avatar
Benchmarker
 
Join Date: March 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 8,252
Send a message via Yahoo to chrisbard

Windows 7 is the way forward, I see many people investing in a lot of expensive equipment then expect to really use it under some weird OS's. Go figure!
__________________
I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 14th June, 2013, 03:27 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Win3.1, 3.2, 95, 98, 98SE, and by and large XP all felt like computer OS's, like they were good tools and either working with me or at least not getting in the way. On the other hand, Win7 feels like it's trying to push me into a know-nothing box that probably perfectly reflects the views of it's marketeers on the average person walking into a big box store, but it doesn't work at all well with me.

You may adore it, and if so, good for you, but I'm not far removed from despising its designed in lack of cooperation with someone who actually knows something about computers and would like it to simply work along with him and try not to get in the way. I consider what MS has done to the "Control Panel" to be a perfect example of how something reasonably straightforward can be made remarkably convoluted and obtuse. From what I read, Win8 does more of the same, raising the aggravation to yet higher levels.

No doubt you're a strong believer in Win8 as well since it comes after Win7 and therefore must be the "future". I don't need an adversarial relationship with an OS, and any OS that fosters such is my idea of weird.
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 14th June, 2013 at 07:41 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 14th June, 2013, 05:31 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

There is almost nothing I can intelligently say say about the underpinnings of any OS.... That said I'm running a pretty new card that "seems" to be fully recognized in Linux... however I'm also running cutting edge OS's. i.e

Mint 15 (Ubuntu based)
Mint Debain (Debain Based)
Mint KDE (Unbuntu based)

I don't know if any of these allow my card to act as a co-processor...it's enough for me that they allow it to act as a video card...for Linux...that a huge step forward.

As a platform for my Video card it seems fully implemented where the game is intended for Linux OR is a direct X 9 game. The problem is that the Games are written for Windows...So I can't really complain if My OS is a bit behind in running them.":O}

Btw My Video card is a Nvidia GeForce 670 GTX FTW
Attached Thumbnails
My first new machine in roughly 10 years :)!-screenshot-2013-06-14-09-30  
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 14th June, 2013 at 05:32 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 17th June, 2013, 08:31 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

I've been trying to learn more about the state of video card co-processing (that being the intent of my card purchase) and it appears there's plenty to learn. I realized it was a fairly new concept (started out some ten years ago or more and began to be provided for in video cards over the last five years or so), but appears the software architecture is in the early stages and OCL is just one possibility for an end solution. This website provides plenty of overview, a little detail, and some connections for further info: AMD

Looks as though it'll be awhile before it becomes at all mainstream, but seems probable it'll get there. I like what AMD is doing with their APU implementation, but seems like the broader problem is how to enable efficient co-computing when CPU and GPU and their respective memory access is separated by a data bus. Being able to pass pointers instead of data is key and that requires a different conceptual design, one that provides direct access to communal memory -- much the same as an AMD APU does internally.

Starting with the AMD Athlon 64 processors, the memory controller moved into the CPU, and then Intel followed suit. Wonder if bi-directional bus communication capable of external processor direct memory access exists (as opposed to data block copying via virtual address space)? I understand PCIe has decent bidirectional capability (SLI and Crossfire use it), so perhaps modification to just the CPU/memory controller and video card/GPU would be enough to enable communal memory access. If so, that would make it much easier for AMD to implement motherboard level HSA. In fact, some level of support could possibly be provided by existing motherboards (depending on bandwidth requirement). I'm thinking this could be a forcing function for PCIe 3.0 implementation, something AMD is taking its time releasing a new chip set for -- perhaps an HSA connection?

Seems like impact on BOLT/SAIL specification/implementation might be limited to determination of whether a task is more efficiently performed by CPU or GPU and elimination of non-HSA required copy instructions (data copying currently being an overhead liability for GPU use). Pretty exciting stuff really, glad to be finally aware of it! Seems AMD is shooting for HSA/hUMA compatible GPU's in 2014 -- here's hoping !

PS. A related article: http://arstechnica.com/information-t...ear-in-kaveri/
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 17th June, 2013 at 05:32 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 17th June, 2013, 05:44 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

Your way way ahead of me on this... But Intel does allow one (in the Bios) to have the CPU help a weak video card with it's gaming duties... but from what I hear it mostly just messes things up in games... But don't quote me on that! ":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 18th June, 2013, 12:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Since you built your PC a year ago, I'm guessing you have an i7 Ivy Bridge which includes an on-die HD 4000 GPU. In which case, I'm guessing the function you enable in BIOS is sort of a non-bridged SLI -- I've read the AMD APUs also offer something like that, kind of a CrossFireX. Haven't read anything about how well it works, though I'd imagine it depends on the video card chip set. Something else for me to try to find some info on.

I'm thinking of returning my HD7770 and either picking up an HD7850 1GB or sitting tight to see what happens regarding HSA compatible GPUs. Seems to me, that's what opens the door to the real payoff. 'Course, that's currently scheduled for 2014 and I've no way of knowing which quarter or even if it'll slip to '15. Still, I've yet to try crunching with the FX4300, so it could be most sensible to just hold off on the video card and get to know the processor.
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 18th June, 2013, 05:30 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

Dude You've got insight! Yes a Asus Z77 Sabertooth with and i7 2600K.

In the last 5-7 years I've stayed away for AMD CPU and video cards due to my Extreme attachment to Linux and AMD's poor support therein...not sure whose fault that is... and I've always been blown away by my Intel/Nvidia set ups.
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 18th June, 2013 at 05:30 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 18th June, 2013, 07:06 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

If I'd had to guess, I think I'd have gone Sabertooth, but would definitely have been a guess -- i7 was much clearer !

FWIW -- Linux is a specific target for HSA and so perhaps there'll yet be reconciliation between yourself and AMD ! Still, it's true I've a weakness for AMD, call it an inclination for the underdog.

AMD had a great opportunity a few years back (Athlon 64 X2) and totally blew it. Intel was fortunate to fairly quickly recover (Core Duo) and then responded by grinding AMD under its heel (taking a totally illegal route to accomplish same) -- perhaps even outdid the great Bill himself!

This behavior affirms my negative perspective on Intel and I find it unpleasant to recommend their product, but nonetheless, they clearly once again have the market/product advantage. Well, perhaps it was inevitable, don't know, but I continue to have a preference for at least quasi-sportsmanlike play.
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 18th June, 2013, 07:53 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

When it comes to the corporate side of my computing...I'm pretty sure I hate them all and REALLY hate most of them. I'm a bit ashamed to use any of their products...but what can I do?":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 18th June, 2013 at 07:54 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 19th June, 2013, 01:44 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Having had a successful build for my neighbor's daughter, he's very interested in my building one for him, again a gamer, but more upper midrange in performance (first person shooter rather than WOW style adventure). I'd like to go FX6300 with a modest dynamic overclock, and Radeon HD7950 also with a modest dynamic overclock. I think that would get him comfortably into midrange+ and support upgrade to "Steamroller" should it eventually make sense.

If I think Intel, it adds $150 -- an i5-4670K Haswell and more expensive mother board (ASUS Z87M-Plus Vs Asrock 970 Extreme4). Although the single threaded Quad is stronger than the FX6300 in some ways, it isn't in all ways and it's not clear the greater strengths would make much difference at this level. The video card competition comes down to the HD7950 and GTX660Ti, near enough a wash, so I prefer the synergy between the two AMD pieces. If I were having to spec a system clearly in the high range, I'd have little choice but Intel and perhaps Nvidia -- can't say I'd like it, but I'd probably be stuck with it. At lower levels, I think the AMD value proposition makes more sense.
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 19th June, 2013 at 02:19 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 21st June, 2013, 09:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post
I'm thinking of returning my HD7770 and either picking up an HD7850 1GB or sitting tight to see what happens regarding HSA compatible GPUs.
Dropped off the Sapphire 7770 1GHz at the Post Office Wednesday (a pretty good card for overclocking) and today (Friday) bought a used Sapphire 7850 1GB via Ebay (liked the price). It's in transit and expected as early as Monday. Will install in the cruncher to verify it works and see what it'll do, but am considering building a small FX6300 machine that might become the eventual target. 'Course, what I should probably do is wait for a "Steamroller" CPU since I've already a "Piledriver", but if I can find decent used prices, it gets easier to justify !

===============================LATER============== ==================

Well, it's started, guess I should begin another thread.
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 21st June, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 22nd June, 2013, 12:50 AM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

We WILL find you either way! ":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 22nd June, 2013, 03:41 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Was just doing some checking and see I was mistaken, you have a Sandy Bridge -- sorry about that! Seems like a pretty nice processor choice for serious clocking (as in water cooled), should be plenty of headroom. What decided you on quad instead of hex core (or was it just timing)?

Sandy Bridge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't know what games you play, but together with the 670 GTX, you must have one seriously swift machine! From reading about the new Haswell, two generations have now passed without any real reason for a Sandy Bridge gamer to change horses, so I guess you stepped in at a good time.

Thinking of new thread Vs keeping to this one, the new build isn't intended to be a cruncher (and definitely won't be my first in ten years), but rather a mid-range gamer. As such, it'll be closer to my other build thread (especially since I plan on the same motherboard), but I won't have to worry about preserving an OS, I already have the right LAN driver, and I won't have to concern myself with the needs of other parties !

It'd be interesting to take the Intel i5-4670K Haswell route, but the additional cost is a large slice of budget and I'm perfectly happy to further explore AMD options. However, you may note I'm drawing a line at the FX8350/20, too much money and I'm not convinced a non-high-end gamer really needs it (maybe for benchmarks, but not for games).

Right now I'm trying to identify an appropriate power supply and it's appearing used isn't a realistic option !
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 22nd June, 2013 at 04:05 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 22nd June, 2013, 04:12 AM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

I'm 65...this comes into play in that this may well be my last build. It is by far my most advanced for it's time and the most expensive.

I can do 5 gigs on a cold day and 4.8 on most days and 4.4 on most summer days... so water cooling comes in very handy on all days.":O}

right now my 670 is under utilized in that I'm playing DirectX 9 games due to WINE's limitations...but as WINE improves I'll be ready for Dirext X 10 and 11 down the line.

What I enjoy most about this rig is Folding at home...it just tears up Work units like nothing I've ever seen, like Nothing I even thought possible.

Ivy on a smaller die isn't as over clockable and presents real heat problems, so I pasted it up for a slightly older Sandy...without tears.":O}

My advice to the sane over clocker? Wait a year or two...then do exactly what I did.":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 24th June, 2013, 02:25 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

I'm guessing heat control was the reason for choosing quad over hex core? Seems like a tough thing to decide given same core architecture and process. Performance sounds great !

Was playing with clocking the HD5450 today and was amazed at how far it went -- from 600/500 (GPU/memory) to 725/1000 stable. Also fooled with the FX4300 clock and got to 4.4GHz with moderate voltage increase. The GPU is hitting 68C, the CPU just 44C, and there should still be room for the CPU to play. Feels like excess current draw is closing down the PS (trying to figure it out). Still, hit a 3DMark06 score of about 4,840, not bad for an HD5450 !
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 24th June, 2013, 06:50 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

You pulling some very sweet clocks! ":O}

The analogy I read put it this way "picture a hall way with rooms on both sides, picture the rooms on fire. The smaller the die size the harder it is to keep the hall cool enough to use. As the heat from both sides builds more rapidly and spills into the hall you can't blow enough cool air to contain the heat no matter how fast you blow it through.

That's why I went with the 32...BIG 'ol fat hallway! Much easier to over clock safely.":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 24th June, 2013 at 06:51 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 25th June, 2013, 12:30 AM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2002
Posts: 964

Cool! Sounds like it's working !

My boot drive is a fairly old 160GB Maxtor and I'm thinking it's running kinda warm. Wondering if it's sourcing the current drain. Ordered a SanDisk 64GB SSD to swap in and see what happens.

Hope that fixes it since at the moment, that machine's giving the lie to all the Watt calculators out there. There's practically nothing in the build and yet a 650W Antec Triple (19A/rail) seems to have trouble with it given a mild o/c. I earlier tried a brand new 550W XFX single (no o/c) and it couldn't even boot the machine! Need a new PS for the new gamer build, but I'm reluctant to order until I figure this out.

The HD7850 arrived today, looks awesome with fat copper heat pipes! No box or other extras but it's used and I wasn't really expecting anything more -- card is clean and so as long as it works properly, I'm satisfied. Will reserve photos for the new build !
__________________
FIC VA-503+
K6-III+/450@550
256MB PC133Turbo
Abit Rocket 100
WinXPsp2/Win98SE

Last edited by TrevorS; 25th June, 2013 at 12:36 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
new build



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Well its taken over 3 years Toro ThunderRd's AOA FOLDING@HOME Team 7 21st August, 2007 04:27 AM
25 years later... robbie Mookydooky's Just for laughs! 3 3rd August, 2006 01:48 PM
4-5 Years mookydooky Mookydooky's Just for laughs! 7 24th February, 2006 08:47 AM
27 years!! weldzilla Random Nonsense! 23 23rd December, 2005 01:58 AM
3 Years old!! GrahamGarside Random Nonsense! 6 8th November, 2004 01:19 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:55 PM.


Copyright ©2001 - 2010, AOA Forums
Don't Click Here Don't Click Here Either

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0