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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23rd May, 2013, 10:27 AM
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Got another new build, but likely OS issues :(!

My neighbor requested I build an upgrade gamer for his daughter! Got all the parts, but unfortunately, she's apparently misplaced the Windows backup disc for re-install. Guess that's step one, evaluate the existing boot drive with intent of preserving it. The build includes a new motherboard (old one died) and I've learned that previous mobo drivers can cause serious problems when installing a new board! Guess I'll be starting on it tomorrow. If anyone has successful experience with this, I invite your input!
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Old 23rd May, 2013, 10:28 AM
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Don't use the backup disk. Do a clean install to avoid a lot of pain.
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Old 23rd May, 2013, 10:52 AM
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I hear you Chris, but buying a new Win7 OS install disc/license to rebuild a previously running Win7 installation is a major problem, totally blowing the upgrade budget (she makes minimum wage and only on minimum days per week). If at all practical, I need to preserve the OS that's already installed.

It's truly unfortunate MicroSoft deliberately chose to create this problem -- this young lady surely didn't ask for it! Still, billions to Bill Gates has to be good for all, right? In any case, I seriously want to help this girl with her upgrade, any tips are appreciated.
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Old 23rd May, 2013, 11:05 AM
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If it is windows 7 then you dont have so many problems. Have you thought of taking the ol hdd and putting into the new built just for the OS?
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Old 23rd May, 2013, 11:15 AM
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Unfortunately, I've no experience with Win7, if I can simply build the new PC (new motherboard, processor, memory, and video card), install the existing boot drive and then the board drivers from the install disc, that would be great. I just wasn't expecting it to be that straightforward.
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Last edited by TrevorS; 23rd May, 2013 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 24th May, 2013, 01:39 AM
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Honestly, (and I could be wrong) I think window's will baulk and baulk hard if you change out that much hardware all at once.
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Last edited by robbie; 24th May, 2013 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 24th May, 2013, 04:22 AM
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My current hope is that I can get into the OS and uninstall all motherboard specific drivers, probably the video drivers as well. I'm taking a shot at repairing the old motherboard to ensure a safe boot. Having a devil of a time clearing the solder out of the regulator cap feed-thrus -- two to go.

If you're thinking there may be some staging required to keep the OS happy as part of Dear Bill's security design -- I've no idea. The old video card could be installed as a temporary measure, but this motherboard doesn't support IDE and so the optical drive has to change. The boot hard drive stays the same, but the memory has to change from DDR to DDR3.
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Old 24th May, 2013, 05:40 PM
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In general, you would need to uninstall system drivers just before shutting down the old PC for the last time. Not easily done if the PC was dead.

Otherwise start over with a new install.
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Old 24th May, 2013, 08:40 PM
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Got the old PC running again 5:30AM today. I reinstalled the old video board to try and keep the environment as stable as possible for Win7, and later swapped in the new SATA DVD drive as step one of the transition process. It's run a pile of Windows updates since then via the internet. Seemingly stable at this point. Man, feels almost like I'm dealing with a patient in a hospital!

I'm hoping that if I change things gradually, it will be less likely to cause trouble. I'll install WinXP on a fresh hard drive to check out the new hardware, won't try the Win7 boot drive with the new motherboard/CPU/DRAM until I know everything's good.
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Last edited by TrevorS; 24th May, 2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 25th May, 2013, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorS View Post
I'll install WinXP on a fresh hard drive to check out the new hardware, won't try the Win7 boot drive with the new motherboard/CPU/DRAM until I know everything's good.
Bummer, got the new build completed except for a temporary brand new power supply, a temporary SATA hard drive, and a temporary old known good video card (Radeon 7000 PCI), passed self test fine, began WinXP install, but then it BSOD'd on the very first hard drive boot.

It's complaining about an old driver named pci.sys apparently doing something it ought notta! Tried twice and identical failure. It's now running a memory test while I ponder my next step, never seen this before. Guess I could attempt a raw Win7 or Linux install just to see what happens. WinXP installed fine on my own new Asrock based build, though with a different board. BIOS maybe? What could cause an incompatibility with WinXP install?

======================================= LATER ======================================

Win7 is currently installing and nothing funny yet -- fingers crossed and here's hoping!

It came up! Looks as though there's some issue between this board/BIOS and my old WinXP Pro install disc, but Win7 installed fine and that's what matters! Just need to beat on it a little now to make sure it stays together !

==================================== STILL LATER ====================================

OK, I'm convinced, Win7 is BS. My Win98SE and WinXP machines can communicate on my local LAN. However, Win7 attitude is if it isn't Win7, I'm not communicating! Bill, speaking plainly, man to lizard, in the spirit of reciprococity and quid pro quo -- up yours (as Mr. Bill laughs all the way to the bank)!
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Last edited by TrevorS; 25th May, 2013 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 25th May, 2013, 11:16 AM
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hi
the past few weeks i have been ressurecting my old pc's (including destroying 2 perfectly good 7njs motherboards)
i had a stubborn drive that kept bsod, i used the tools on the UBCD to delete/ partition e.t.c, including the mbr. after all that the hard disk is fine and have done a couple of clean xp installs on it ok.
this is a ibm/hitachi 80Gb, which used to be half of a raid array on my 7njs,

a clean install of xp takes days for all the updates, i have used a downloaded SP3 which has to be installed before the windows update will work
i get all the updates usually, but now believe the new windows search 4.0 was responsible for random lock ups with the xp3200+ on a msi board. i have it all running again with the xp2500+, and seems all stable (at the moment)

don't know if that is helpful, but good luck
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Old 25th May, 2013, 05:42 PM
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Thinking about it, I'm suspecting it's a second example of original WinXP install incompatibility with modern motherboards. My other Asrock install had a problem at the last WinXP boot causing the video to go haywire. I fixed it by booting into safe-mode and installing SP2. I'm suspecting these problems would go away if my install disc were SP1 or later. Asrock documentation indicates WinXP compatibility, but I doubt they're testing with the earliest rendition installs. I'd have tried safe-mode this time as well, but it doesn't get far enough to allow that.

So, it appears my WinXP install disc has become an iffy proposition for current boards, that's too bad ! I'd be willing to work with Win7, but to be forced to use USB and a flash card to transfer files when I've a perfectly good LAN (which Win7 doesn't mind using to gain internet access) is absurd. As far as I'm concerned, Win7 is absurd. It could be there's some workaround available on the net (perhaps I can just force the settings) and I'll continue to fool with it, but I really don't see anything to like about it yet, it just gets in the way and I have to keep working around it. Take away DirectX and where would MS and dear Mr. Bill be?

Still, thanks to Daniel's photo request in my previous build thread, I've taken a few. The primary complications then arose from the mix of old and new, but this one revolves around Win7 and its willingness (or unwillingness) to adapt to configuration changes. That being complicated by the old system having being dead. The build is pretty much Vanilla, just plug the new pieces together -- it's preserving the OS and the owner's environment that's the issue. I'm suspecting people who reconfigure PC's for a living have special MS licenses to allow them to reinstall/replace existing systems while preserving "legitimacy" (obeisance to Mr. Bill).

In any case, here are a few photos. Thing to be aware of is a desire to preserve the original system (following repair of the original motherboard) and to minimize transition trauma for the original Win7 install (neither of which may ultimately help), the build includes substitutes for the target hard drive, DVD/CD drive (same model but different serial number), power supply and video card. When I move the original Win7 hard drive, the original video card and its current DVD/CD drive will come with it -- two fewer unfamiliar items. For my own convenience, the original Thermaltake 600W power supply will transition after the hard drive (no familiarity issues). Still have the largely original machine sitting here powered with a LAN connection. Looks like it finally finished its MS update queue and is mostly hibernating.

Back to the photos, I think they're pretty self explanatory. No video card is shown installed since that will actually be the very last step when trying to coax Win7 to accept the new configuration.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_1.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_2.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_3.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_4.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_5.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_6.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_7.jpg

The Rosewill is a very nice case with three fans: front, top, rear. The bottom located power supply mount allows inversion to orient the fan upward, though includes a grill and removable filter if you prefer it face downward. The plastic 3-1/2" and 5-1/4" drive attachment systems are pretty clever (including a floppy sled), and though I prefer metal to metal for hard drive heat dissipation, the front fan blows directly over the hard drives, so they should be fine. (Hit two complications: 1) The plastic hard drive bracket's two securing pins were pre-installed into the wrong pair of holes for my drive -- had to move them. 2) Removing the front slot covers is tricky -- after removing the front panel, the interior securing tabs have to be pushed carefully outwards allowing the covers to release to the inside, not the outside.) The case provides front panel access to 2 USB2.0 ports, 1 eSATA, headphones, and mic. There's an HD activity LED, but instead of a power LED, there's blue lighting at the front fan to serve much the same purpose (just no hibernation blink).

The mother board fairly bristles with fan headers. Four for the case, and both a 3pin and 4pin for the CPU HSF (only use one). The BIOS provides flexible fan speed control, auto targeting of temp and fan speed for the CPU, and manual fan speed settings for the others. With the full-on defaults, there's quite a whoosh from the fans, but after dialing them back some, the sound level is much more comfortable.

The board also supports up to three SLI or Crossfire video cards, though the first two are x8 and a third would be x4. Still, from looking at performance comparisons, PCI-e 2.0 x8 provides barely less performance than 3.0 x16, so I'm not sure that's much of a limitation, even 2.0 x4 does pretty good. The layout allows for three dual-slot video cards, just don't need to also install a PCI card. For I/O, headers provide for 6 USB2.0 ports, 2 USB3.0, HDaudio, and a few other odds and ends. The rear I/O panel provides PS/2 mouse/keyboard, 4 USB2.0 ports, 2 USB3.0, 1 IEEE 1394, 1 eSATA 6GB/s, LAN, serial port, optical and coaxial SPDIF, 6 audio jacks, and a CMOS clear button. Also on the board are power and reset buttons plus a two digit LED troubleshooting display. All in all, seems pretty darned impressive to me. Oh yes, the board provides neither PATA nor floppy controllers, but it does have five internal SATA 6GB/s ports. Front panel eSATA uses one of them.

Purpose of the build was to create a good gaming foundation that can be expanded as needed. Between the capability of the board, the original 600W supply, and the AMD Phenom II 965, I think this provides plenty of foundation. I'm aware the Radeon 7750 isn't the greatest, but a limited budget has to be circumspect and upgrading a video card is one of the easier tasks on a PC (also, the 7750 is CrossFireX capable). I was running benchmark comparisons between my FX4300 with the original 5450 Vs this build with the 7750 and they suggest a card capability increase of at least six times, likely more (results get watered down by CPU scores and these two are similar). Add that to the difference between the original Athlon 64 3200+ and the 965 BE, should be a whole new world of gaming !
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Last edited by TrevorS; 26th May, 2013 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 26th May, 2013, 03:15 AM
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Noticed while working with the Asus 7750 and their tweak utility, the GPU default is 820MHz, unfortunately, it doesn't hold up under benchmarking. In fact, to get through sequential passes of 3DMk06 I had to lower it all the way to 775MHz. On the other hand, I was able to raise the DRAM clock from 460MHz up to the utility limit of 516MHz with no sign of complaint.

I today re-installed the Asus HS replacing the old compound pad with Arctic Silver 5, both well cleaned surfaces duly "tinted" and perhaps a half "rice grain" final application, but it's not clear I gained anything. Appears as though when the GPU hits 45C, it quits, and it may require a better HS to hold it down. Still, the Arctic Silver folks say it takes a few cold to hot cycles to get AS-5 to full performance, so hopefully, I'll eventually gain enough MHz to make a difference. Of course, repeated passes of the worst case may be asking too much, don't know. Just downloaded 3DMk11 for DirectX10 testing -- see what happens with that.

PS. Front panel USB2.0 is pretty handy when forced to use USB CF card file transfers -- thanks again Win7!

============================= A LITTLE LATER ================================

Well, that's disappointing, I ran the benchmark and one test dragged the card down as far as 7.5 fps, but it provides neither score nor details -- you have to go online to see them. I guess the intent of the free download is to collect data for their database of what's running out here and how it scores. They made specific note of the processor and video card.

At least, the card didn't get into trouble with it. That first test in 3Dmk06 seems to be a killer for this GPU. Also, it couldn't get passed the first or second test of 3Dmk2001SE at 820MHz, had to drop it some 15-20MHz. Probably why it ended up on Ebay.
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Last edited by TrevorS; 26th May, 2013 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 28th May, 2013, 03:49 AM
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Original Win7 boot drive is installed in the new build and seems quite comfortable. Its new SATA DVD drive and original video card went in with it and I kept booting into Safe Mode to try to minimize risk of complications. After about three boots for OS driver installs, I did a normal boot and started loading the new board drivers from CD.

The only funny I've hit is for whatever reason, I can install 3DMark2001SE, but it won't run. Since this Win7 install is fully up-to-date via Win update, I'm guessing something there is effecting it, but if not, I've no clue. It runs the later benchmarks just fine, plays movies, performs file transfers, communicates with the internet via Firefox, reliably accesses the devices -- looks OK to me. If anyone knows of any complications between 3DMark2001SE and the current incarnation of Win7, please let me know.

The original power supply still has to go in, but the video card is on hold and may be replaced -- that delay is probably just as well I'm thinking, yet another hardware replacement. In any case, things are looking pretty good.
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Old 12th June, 2013, 05:31 AM
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Just realized I left this build thread dangling. The original 600W power supply was swapped in and I was preparing for eventual video card install when I discovered the LAN connection wasn't working properly. Symptoms were web sites wouldn't load (exception being Google), Windows Update couldn't update, nor could SuperAntispy and AvastAntivirus -- machine could ping, but that was about it for online. After chasing my tail for a couple days, finally got hold of a brand new not-yet-released-for-public-consumption LAN driver (thank you Asrock support) and the problem was solved.

Lastly, a Sapphire Radeon 7770 arrived which also didn't work properly. However, downloading the latest driver fixed that, and now the machine is in the hands of the new owner and apparently working fine ! (Did have to reactivate it via MS online after removing the bad LAN driver, funny Win7 chose to draw-the-line at removal of a driver that wasn't even original!)
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Old 14th June, 2013, 04:08 AM
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Thanks for bring us up to date.":O}
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Old 2nd July, 2013, 03:47 PM
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Finally received a photo of the PC in it's new home. The owner took it with her phone so the quality's a bit less than the others, but you can see how it looks when fired up.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a33...extBuild_8.jpg
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Old 2nd July, 2013, 10:20 PM
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Pretty descent.
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Old 3rd July, 2013, 12:49 AM
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Thanks (I'm thinking) from all of us, and I agree -- it's a nice looking case and PC. This is the first time I've concerned myself with appearance and I voted strongly for this choice (three internal fans and blue LED); fortunately, I was backed up by other interested parties !
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Old 3rd July, 2013, 03:02 AM
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The way I see this, you have to sit next to it or around it at lest. You really should take care that you like your work environment. A computer case is a big part of that environment, I rarely close my cast, I like to look at her while she works...":O}
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