Maybe I have this wrong

[cloasters]

I read that we as a country are more divided than we have been since the Civil War. Which seems to mean that folks that want to keep-things- as- they- are aren't listening to people that want a few changes in the course of the present ship of state. And vice-versa, to a large degree.

I don't understand why the people in power at the moment, and their supporters are so angry. Zell Miller's Keynote Address at the RNC was a fountain of hatred.

There was no such speech at the Democrat's National Convention in Boston. Republican bashing was kept to a minimum. It rarely took place, and was snuffed out quickly. It was not part of the official platform.

Yet hatred for Democrats was a large part of the Republican's platform in New York.

Hate is abundant and easily amplified by those who gain from it.

Don't misunderstand me, please. John Kerry is no angel and is a member of the ruling class, just like his opponent. If he's elected, things won't change fast enough to suit many people that voted for him.

IMHO, if Mr Bush is elected the country will never recover for the better.

[Daniel ~]

An old debate axiom:

"If you can't attack your adversary's argument, attack your adversary."

If your adversary is for child care and motherhood, don't argue against motherhood and child care, call him a child molester instead!

Neither side seeks a rational review of issues, that would generate far to much thought for comfort!

Both sides NEEDS an emotional electorate, one that's not prone to asking questions, but to cheers and jeers.

I haven't heard a single good idea advanced by either side. "He's worse" is about as deep as these cats get.

[danrok]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

I haven't heard a single good idea advanced by either side. "He's worse" is about as deep as these cats get.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Seems to be what most politicians are about these days - make the opponent look worse, big yourself up by putting others down. Anyone would think it was the school playground!

[Staz]

As soon as we get a candidate who says:

Any one who is not a convicted felon should be able to own a gun, but should also have to register it and have it test fired for a balistic finger print.

Any woman should be able to chose what she does with her own body and that he is personally against abortion but doesn't think anyone should take away a womans right to make that choice for herself.

Wants affordible or free healtcare made availible for all

Wants anyone who is willing to better him or herself to be given the oppertunity of higher education.

And realizes that some pull the cart, some ride the cart and some walk along side the cart. And the heavier the load you put on those pulling the cart means that they will eventually get tired and not be able to pull any more.

As soon as we get someone like that I will vote for him no matter what party he is from. We already had someone like that but he refused to run.

Pity


EDIT:
Until then it is going to be the lesser of two evils.

[Kaitain]

Originally Posted by danrok

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Seems to be what most politicians are about these days - make the opponent look worse, big yourself up by putting others down. Anyone would think it was the school playground!

They've been taking hints from Tony Blair and Michael Howard...

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Staz

As soon as we get a candidate who says:

Any one who is not a convicted felon should be able to own a gun, but should also have to register it and have it test fired for a ballistic finger print.

Any woman should be able to chose what she does with her own body and that he is personally against abortion but doesn't think anyone should take away a womans right to make that choice for herself.

Wants affordable or free healtcare made availible for all

Wants anyone who is willing to better him or herself to be given the oppertunity of higher education.

And realizes that some pull the cart, some ride the cart and some walk along side the cart. And the heavier the load you put on those pulling the cart means that they will eventually get tired and not be able to pull any more.

As soon as we get someone like that I will vote for him no matter what party he is from. We already had someone like that but he refused to run.

Pity


EDIT:
Until then it is going to be the lesser of two evils.

I know you think well of the man, but I can't get past the company he choose to keep and to serve.

Powell lent his weight to legitimize Bush and Chenny. I just just can't hold that in high regard.

Sad to say, I think your runner stumbled.

[Staz]

I remember seeing an interview with Colin Powel shortly after he announced that he would not seek the nomination for President.

He basicly said that he didn't feel he was allied with either party but running for President as an independant simply would not work. So he had to choose one or the other. And the Republican party more closly fit his views and it would be easier for him to run as a republican. Then he decided not to run.

After that I believe G.W.B. choose him as sectratery of state because is is the strong charismatic millitary leader that G.W.B. isn't. If you thought you could do some good in what is considered by many the 4th most powerful position in politics, don't you think you would take it?

Saddly I feel he will never seek a higher position, and Sectratery of State does not hold the same athority it once did.

I used to have high hopes for Bob Graham until I watched his speach at the Democratic National Convention where he basically said that we must do everything possible to oust the current administration. It was sad. It almost seemed like he hired Micheal Moore to help write that speach. It was totally out of character for him. I would not be surprised to see him throw his hat in the ring 4 years from now. 4 years ago I would have voted for him. But now I would have to take a long hard look.

I still have high hopes for Mary Landrue, but I don't think she is quite ready to run for president yet. Lets give her 4 years as govener and see how she does. But even if she does good I don't think America is ready for a female President yet. And I don't think it will be any closer in 8 years.


I am waiting for a level headed person that is in touch with the realities of the real world and has not whored himself out to the special intrest groups.

I think it is going to be a long wait.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Staz

. If you thought you could do some good in what is considered by many the 4th most powerful position in politics, don't you think you would take it?
.

I'm sorry, he thought serving the Bush agenda would do some good? For who? Then I'd have to say his judgment is suspect, or his motives.

No I would not serve the devil to sweep the streets of heaven, you can only end up damned and in the gutter. He should have said no.

The mere ability to say no, would have set him apart from the rest. In my view he's disgraced himself. He allowed himself to be use by lesser men, not half as intelligent as himself.

Not the first good man ruined by politics.

He should have said no and kept his dignity. He should have been able to wait for a REAL opportunity.

[GrahamGarside]

I've been arguing with friends lately. With our genral elections coming up I'm going lib dems because I'll never agree with conservative policy and the "labour" party has let the country down far to much, but they argue a vote for lib dems is a vote for conservative because they aren't a viable party. Unfortunately this is a view held by many so they will all vote labour out of fear of a tory government. But surely if everyone who is fed up with "labour" voted for lib dems (or who ever they wish) then there wouldn't be this problem

[Áedán]

Originally Posted by Staz

Any one who is not a convicted felon should be able to own a gun, but should also have to register it and have it test fired for a balistic finger print.

Why test fired for a balistic finger print? It's been demonstrated that that is not a reliable method for determining the weapon that was used.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

I'm sorry, he thought serving the Bush agenda would do some good? For who? Then I'd have to say his judgment is suspect, or his motives.
.
.
.
He should have said no and kept his dignity. He should have been able to wait for a REAL opportunity.

Was it not you who counciled in another topic that we sometimes have to choose the lesser of two evils?

As an example, I get the impression that you have no intention to vote because you feel that neither candidate deserves your vote. Fair enough. But if you fail to vote, then you give tacit approval to the winning candidate, WHOEVER THAT MAY BE, by virtue of the fact that you have failed to indicate who you are against with your vote. And while voting for someone based solely on the fact that "He ain't the other guy" is a pretty poor reason to vote for someone, sometimes its the best that we have available.

When given a choice between bad and worse, it seems to me you have to go with bad and bide your time to find something better, doesn't it?

Obviously, if you have the luxury of being able to wait for another option, that is the best course. It is not always apparent until after the time for decision has passed, however, that there are other options available.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Áedán

Why test fired for a balistic finger print? It's been demonstrated that that is not a reliable method for determining the weapon that was used.

Indeed. I found an interesting article about that here: http://johnrlott.tripod.com/bulletsandbunkum.html

This guy is obviously for people owning weapons (as am I), but the arguments he makes seem to make sense.

[Kaitain]

Originally Posted by GrahamGarside

Unfortunately this is a view held by many so they will all vote labour out of fear of a tory government. But surely if everyone who is fed up with "labour" voted for lib dems (or who ever they wish) then there wouldn't be this problem

This is exactly what landed us with Tony Torquemada in the first place. In '97, people were bored with John Major's government, the press were raking it over hot coals all the time, internal rifts in the Tory party basically prevented them from doing anything useful and people were frankly bored. It wasn't that they were doing anything particularly wrong - there was little difference between Tory policy and New Labour policy (then as now) but that people perceived that everything the Tories did was wrong. So they voted "for the other guy" thus giving Bliar such a massive majority that he was able to bolt through legislation as though it was going out of fashion.

"Tactical" voting will always come back to haunt us. Better just to vote on policy, or if no party is suitable, write "reopen nominations" across the ballot paper and submit that.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by gizmo

Was it not you who counciled in another topic that we sometimes have to choose the lesser of two evils?

As an example, I get the impression that you have no intention to vote because you feel that neither candidate deserves your vote. Fair enough. But if you fail to vote, then you give tacit approval to the winning candidate, WHOEVER THAT MAY BE, by virtue of the fact that you have failed to indicate who you are against with your vote. And while voting for someone based solely on the fact that "He ain't the other guy" is a pretty poor reason to vote for someone, sometimes its the best that we have available.

When given a choice between bad and worse, it seems to me you have to go with bad and bide your time to find something better, doesn't it?

Obviously, if you have the luxury of being able to wait for another option, that is the best course. It is not always apparent until after the time for decision has passed, however, that there are other options available.

No, It was I that refuse to run a country based upon a vote between TWO evils, there is no lesser and hasn't been in twenty years. We ARE a ONE party system. Welcome to the reality of Corporate America! The only difference between the two parties is the lies they believe you want to hear.

Bread and circus, to keep the people happy in their self delusion.

"The Class war is over, my side won!"
(Dick Chenny)

As for my Implicitly endorsing anyone, what nonsense. Our law states that to refuse to inter a plea must be taken as entering a plea of innocence, not the obverse.

(Nolow contendre(SP) or "no argument" or "no contention". But I am not without an argument.

My argument is simple and often repeated here in these forums. American Democracy is to stupid to let live. (Ask Dick Chenny!)

You get the government you all deserve. Unfortunitly I must endure the government you all deserve.

!/3 of your congress and 1/4 of you Senators are millionaires. Whose interests do they represent?

You all sat and did nothing while the presidency was stolen! Why? I think it's because you all already know what I know, it didn't matter!! Just one peace of human garbage stealing an empty title form another. I'd consider a vote for Miss America more meaningful.

You guys don't get it, and until you do understand just how throughly your thinking as gone astray, there's nothing I can do to help, nor anyone else...

Most Americans feel that the government is doing a good job of oppressing them. I do to.

So go play you meaningless game of of musical chairs to amuse your masters. Truly I hear a different drummer. Dick Channey won because you all refused to believe there was a war being fought. To do so would have been inconveint, you might have had to DO something... maybe something that would endanger your SUVs!!

Dick Chaney is at lest as dumb as the rest of you! But his evil gave him purpose, While you were congadulating yourself on being "AN American!" he was fastening your chains While feeding your greed and racism and stroking your vanity.

So what is to be done? Nothing. When you guys are ready to act, we can do nothing and stop the world. topple our tyrants, by doing nothing. Nothing is the only weapon that leaves women and children unharmed or at lest untargeted. We could strike. We could "just say no."

"Nothing" parilizes and stops evil in it tracks. Who will do nothing with me? None. Because you are all a part of the evil you deny exists, your own complancy in your own servitude.

Now look, I've gone and told you the truth of yourselves! and why I refuse participation. Now you tell me, could I get elected dog catcher? No?

But a serial rapists or a deserter can become president, even steal the presidency in the State dad gave his brother. But if anyone tells you their truth and it fails to flatter... better he should live alone....in solitude.

I get cranky like this every four years watching the lemmings head for the cliffs - ....

If any of this offends any one...I was talking about someone else who lives in another country...

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

As for my Implicitly endorsing anyone, what nonsense. Our law states that to refuse to inter a plea must be taken as entering a plea of innocence, not the obverse.

Never-the-less, you still enter a plea. That was my point. Even chosing not to decide is still a choice. A good man who stands by seeing evil and refuses to do anything to stop it still takes part in the evil by allowing it to exist.

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

You all sat and did nothing while the presidency was stolen!

Exactly how so, and when?

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

"Nothing" parilizes and stops evil in it tracks. Who will do nothing with me? None. Because you are all a part of the evil you deny exists, your own complancy in your own servitude.

Not so. 'Nothing' without purpose accomplishes..............nothing. It is true that doing nothing CAN affect the course of events, but only when it is done with a purpose and goal in mind, and only when it is coupled with other appropriate actions. I forget the exact phrasing, but the I-Ching tells us this.

For example, sitting at home believing that racism is wrong and doing 'nothing' accomplishes............nothing.

Sitting in front of city hall with 1,000 of your mates, along with all of the other people who believe likewise doing the same thing all over the country doing 'nothing'.............can change the world.