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Old 26th September, 2001, 11:23 PM
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BeCooling has CuSil Plates!

Yes thats right folks CuSil! A 50x50mm x3/16" plate of CuSil (copper silver alloy) will set you back $54 bucks, but as Pinky says in his signature, you must be prepaired to max out your credit cards to overclock . . . .

http://becooling.safeshopper.com/11/77.htm?106
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Last edited by dimmreaper; 3rd October, 2001 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 28th September, 2001, 12:07 AM
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hmmm, that and a few old coins would make a mean beehive
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 04:00 PM
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Cusil??? I WANT I WANT! how thick are the plates? would it be an idea to make something like one of thoise swiftech HS's? with pins of aluminium embedded in it? i could get the machining done cheap as i got a friend who does all that stuff.....
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
Cusil??? I WANT I WANT! how thick are the plates? would it be an idea to make something like one of thoise swiftech HS's? with pins of aluminium embedded in it? i could get the machining done cheap as i got a friend who does all that stuff.....
I'm afraid they wouldn't be thick enough at just 3/16 of an inch thick. But if you could get a big 80x80mmx1/2inch plate of CuSil, you could use copper pins, and have one schweet HSF . . . .
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 04:38 PM
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hmmm i MAY be able to get some cusil through college, was thinking aluminium fins as they shed heat faster... but copper would pose less corrosion probs!
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 04:45 PM
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3/16"? A 3/8" copper coldplate would work better and cost a lot less.
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 04:59 PM
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Dimmreaper, why do you say 3/16" isn't thick enough?
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 05:31 PM
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3/16 aint enough to make a swiftech style heatsink, as the plate needs to be thick to allow large contact surface with the pins.... im really getting into this idea now... mwuhahahaha
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
hmmm i MAY be able to get some cusil through college, was thinking aluminium fins as they shed heat faster... but copper would pose less corrosion probs!
Actually copper would pose more corrosion problems. And aluminum does not "lose heat faster" it just appears that way in some tests because copper can absorb more heat, so it takes longer to rid itself of the heat . . . .
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 07:16 PM
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hmmmmm u sure about that? as i never heard of AS2 screwing with a copper heatsink.... and cusil is a copper/silver alloy so should cause less corrosion.... although aluminium would be easier to put togeather.... shrink fitting the pins into the base.... i not sure how much cusil expands with heat, but i can find out.....

im almost positive about aluminium radiating heat faster, but no matter i think i'll go with copper pins
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Old 3rd October, 2001, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
hmmmmm u sure about that? as i never heard of AS2 screwing with a copper heatsink.... and cusil is a copper/silver alloy so should cause less corrosion.... although aluminium would be easier to put togeather.... shrink fitting the pins into the base.... i not sure how much cusil expands with heat, but i can find out.....

im almost positive about aluminium radiating heat faster, but no matter i think i'll go with copper pins
You don't need to "shrink fit" the pins, just make a tool that each pin fits in to, then drive them in to the holes in the base with a hammer. So long as the base hole are .010" smaller in diameter, you will get a very tight fit this way. Take my word on this, I'm a machinist.

Aluminum may very well radiate heat better than copper, but you are not relying on radiation to do the bulk of the cooling. It is all about forced air convection baby! Copper is twice as effective when it comes to convection. Copper will be much better suited for the task . . . .
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Old 4th October, 2001, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
You don't need to "shrink fit" the pins, just make a tool that each pin fits in to, then drive them in to the holes in the base with a hammer. So long as the base hole are .010" smaller in diameter, you will get a very tight fit this way. Take my word on this, I'm a machinist.

Aluminum may very well radiate heat better than copper, but you are not relying on radiation to do the bulk of the cooling. It is all about forced air convection baby! Copper is twice as effective when it comes to convection. Copper will be much better suited for the task . . . .
rememeber the wtarblock u were talking about>?
how much woud it cost for one with a CuSil bottom plate??
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Old 4th October, 2001, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by phiber

rememeber the wtarblock u were talking about>?
how much woud it cost for one with a CuSil bottom plate??
Too damn much to be a justifiable purchase considering the miniscule improvement in performance.
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Old 4th October, 2001, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Actually copper would pose more corrosion problems. And aluminum does not "lose heat faster" it just appears that way in some tests because copper can absorb more heat, so it takes longer to rid itself of the heat . . . .
Quote:
im almost positive about aluminium radiating heat faster, but no matter i think i'll go with copper pins
Dealing with points in order:

1) Copper does not corrode under normal conditions. It can be dug up from the ground as pure copper. It will only corrode if you're using it for a water block and your water's contaminated with certain mineral acids or chlorine bleach.

This is why copper is used on the inlet lines for sea desalination plant - it's the only material inert enough to cope with the aggressive environment. (If you're gonna start about all those green Cu statues, such as Liberty, nitric acid's one of those mineral acids I was talking about)

It will, however, cause problems with galvanic corrosion if you use dissimilar metals in your water circuit. All fittings, fixtures, clips and hoses must be made either out of copper, or out of rubber. Copper and silver are a bad combination: the first battery ever created was made up of copper and silver plates in an electrolyte!!!

2) Aluminium has a higher heat capacity, and a lower thermal conductivity than copper. This means that it takes more energy to heat the same mass of Al to a certain temperature than is needed for copper. Similarly, if you heat Al at a point (say, at a cpu core) it is less effective at spreading the heat about within its structure than copper.

Tests which look at fin temperature will thus say "oh, look! The copper heatsink's hotter!" Which it is. It's also at a more uniform temperature right across its structure. As I'm sure you know, the difference between the air temperature and the surface temperature provides the impetus for heat transfer. Because copper reaches a higher temperature sooner, its temperature difference is greater, so heat transfer by convection is faster. Cu has a higher thermal conductivity, so heat flows through it faster. When the computer is turned off, it'll cool down faster, too.

If you were going to base the entire effectiveness of a heatsink on how warm the fins feel to the touch, then I suggest you start making them out of asbestos.

3) Radiation forms a significant part of all heat transfer, since while convective ht is reliant on the temperature difference between the bulk phase and the material, radiation is directly proportional to absolute T^4!

---
From a thermodynamic point of view, copper is better than aluminium, silver is better than copper, and the less of any of them, the better!
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Old 4th October, 2001, 12:11 PM
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1)I dunno, my millenium glaciator has a lot of corosion on it for only being a few months old! And none of my aluminum heatsinks have any corrosion on them.

2)Yup, knew all that . . . .

3)I'm checking more in to exactly how much of the cooling is provided by radiation, but I'm still pretty sure it isn't a lot.

As far as the less aluminum copper or silver thing, what have you been smoking Kaitain? You need lot's of material to increase the HSFs surface area, we consistently see larger heatsinks perform better than smaller ones. Does the Alpha PAL8045 not perform much better than the Alpha PAL6035????
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Old 4th October, 2001, 12:45 PM
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1)I dunno, my millenium glaciator has a lot of corosion on it for only being a few months old! And none of my aluminum heatsinks have any corrosion on them.
Your air cooler is corroding? Jeez, I'm glad I don't live in Michigan - the air there must be caustic!

Quote:
2)Yup, knew all that . . . .
Good for you. Shame you ignored it...

Quote:
3)I'm checking more in to exactly how much of the cooling is provided by radiation, but I'm still pretty sure it isn't a lot.
At temperatures close to ambient, about 5% of the total duty is transferred by radiation.

Quote:
As far as the less aluminum copper or silver thing, what have you been smoking Kaitain?
I shall not incriminate myself in public Just kidding...

I should have made myself clear: I meant less material as in reduce the thickness. As you correctly identified, surface area is the thing. The greater the transfer area the better. The thinner the material through which it's transferred, the better (actually, there is a limiting value, but it's a fraction of a millimetre for the amount of heat you're trying to shift).

Check Fourier's law for 1 dimensional heat flow if you don't believe me: even 3 dimensional models for heat flow reduce to Fourier's law - it's fundamental for conduction within solids. Your aim is to get the heat from the core-side to the air-side as fast as possible. More material just slows this down.

The transfer from solid to air is probably best modelled by the Dittus-Boelter equation (forced draught version). I'm kinda lacking symbols here to print this one (give me time) but it basically demonstrates that heat transfer from solid to air is faster the higher the thermal conductivity of the solid (and the faster the air).

Quote:
Does the Alpha PAL8045 not perform much better than the Alpha PAL6035????
Where were the temperatures taken? If they were taken by thermocouple drilled into the h/s at a uniform distance from the core, then I'll believe the results. If they were taken from the fin-base, then I won't, because they're invalid. Did the fans push the same amount of air?
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Old 4th October, 2001, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain

Your air cooler is corroding? Jeez, I'm glad I don't live in Michigan - the air there must be caustic!
Maybe corrosion isn't the correct word here, oxidization is though. The thing is covered in this dark brown colored stuff, and has a few green dots here and there.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain

Good for you. Shame you ignored it...
I know, I just didn't feel like typing three paragraphs to explain it all, especially when some smart dude like yourself would be along shortly to do so

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain

Where were the temperatures taken? If they were taken by thermocouple drilled into the h/s at a uniform distance from the core, then I'll believe the results. If they were taken from the fin-base, then I won't, because they're invalid. Did the fans push the same amount of air?
Same air flow, different diameter fans, all sorts of temperature taking methods. All results say the larger PAL8045 kicks azz . . . .
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Old 4th October, 2001, 02:22 PM
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Maybe corrosion isn't the correct word here, oxidization is though. The thing is covered in this dark brown colored stuff, and has a few green dots here and there.
Oh, it's tarnished, then! That's no problem. Unlike iron, copper and aluminium have pretty tight oxides that don't affect the surface properties all that much. The oxide layer'll reach a thickness of a few nm, then inhibit any further corrosion. The green spots are copper chloride: is your house air-conditioned, and have you had your acu serviced recently?

Quote:
Same air flow, different diameter fans, all sorts of temperature taking methods. All results say the larger PAL8045 kicks azz . . . .
It probably has more to do with mods to the fin geometry than the overall size of the unit - that's the normal method of improving cooler performance
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Old 4th October, 2001, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain
is your house air-conditioned, and have you had your acu serviced recently?
Nope, no AC. But the months of August and September are always very humid in Michigan, could that be the culprit? Or could the green stuff be from a contaminant residue left on the copper from the shop where they we machined?
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Old 4th October, 2001, 03:19 PM
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somehow I knew you two would have alot to talk about
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