AOA Forums AOA Forums AOA Forums Folding For Team 45 AOA Files Home Front Page Become an AOA Subscriber! UserCP Calendar Memberlist FAQ Search Forum Home


Go Back   AOA Forums > Hardware > Cooling & Temperature Monitoring


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 4th February, 2002, 07:09 PM
dimmreaper's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: road to insanity
Posts: 5,347
Send a message via ICQ to dimmreaper Send a message via AIM to dimmreaper

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain
The point to aim for is the break-in-curve, where it just starts to flatten out. Then you're getting the best value for money out of the metal you've got.
The problem here is that your assuming the particular market desires "value". The way I see it, the water-cooling market is largely made up of performance minded folks. So if(hypothetically) you were going to design a product to market, it might be best to go for a trade off between value and top-performance . . . . something that cost 100% more to "develop" than the typical part on the market, performs 30% better, and only cost 20% more to manufacture . . . . Whether or not those goals can be meet is debatable, but you have to start somewhere and compromise as you go along . . . .
__________________
¤ Jeffery ¤

Wishing you were someone else is a waste of the person you are. - Kurt Cobain

AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 4th February, 2002, 09:55 PM
Member
 
Join Date: November 2001
Location: Rotherham, UK
Posts: 146

Contrary to popular belief, some simple cross drilled blocks dont perform too bad, very low pressure drop unless you get creative with the drilling like i did... 2 10mm inlet/outlet channels with 8 3mm connecting channels.. I tapped threads all the way down these to increase surface area and turbulence, but IMHO waterblocks dont respond to surface area increases as much as they do the proximity of the water flow to the core.. thats why i have all the little channels just above the core, and after drilling it i machined the base as flat and thin as possible (well, as I dare)

Schools come in handy for using machines!
__________________
Dave - Spode's Abode

Dogs can never have too much fun! See Marge, Weee, weee, woo! wayhey! weeeeeeeee!!! -Homer
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 4th February, 2002, 10:25 PM
kplonk's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: December 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 101
Send a message via ICQ to kplonk

Ln2 would be fun there is no doubt,
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 01:16 AM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

The beauty of state change systems, is if you boil liquid nitrogen or similar, it will remain at it's boiling point till completely evaporated.. so all you have to do is make sure it never completely evaporates

IE compress it and put it back into a resvoir.. preferrably one that's in almost direct contact with the core
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 06:29 AM
dimmreaper's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: road to insanity
Posts: 5,347
Send a message via ICQ to dimmreaper Send a message via AIM to dimmreaper

Why must folks complicate things so? If you want phase change, and I mean GOOD phase change:

Just get yourself an old window air conditioner(a smallish model).
Do away with the old "charge".
Eliminate the original evaporator coil.
Build a new evaporator coil inside of a PVC reservoir.
Recharge the system.
Use it to cool water.
Circulate the water with a mag-drive pump. (they will live with -50C)

Why go with phase change cooled liquid, rather than directly cooling the CPU with phase change? The size restrictions are a limiting factor that makes designing an efficient evaporator difficult(if not impossible), requiring a compressor and condenser many times larger than what is desirable. Using the evaporator to cool liquid remotely allows for a much larger, and much more efficient, evaporator.

Won't a large window air conditioner compressor use a lot of electricity? Not if you use a large liquid reservoir and run the compressor on a duty cycle. Such a system would be considerably more energy efficient than peltiers with equal cooling power at least.

I could throw together such a system for around $150, assuming I got a good deal on the AC unit at a garage sale . . . .
__________________
¤ Jeffery ¤

Wishing you were someone else is a waste of the person you are. - Kurt Cobain

AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 10:35 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Quote:
The problem here is that your assuming the particular market desires "value". The way I see it, the water-cooling market is largely made up of performance minded folks.
Not really. I just think you'll be p!ssing an awful lot of money away for no gain if you try for "ultimate" performance from a waterblock.

From the math: for a model I'm working on, at a particular water flow rate (ignoring pressure drop for the mo), and assuming the water was inlet at 5ºC, 1cm fins gave a core temp of 9.84ºC, 2cm fins gave a temp of 9.32ºC, 3cm fins gave 9.04ºC and 4cm fins 8.85ºC. You get very quickly to a point of diminishing returns.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 10:49 AM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
I could throw together such a system for around $150, assuming I got a good deal on the AC unit at a garage sale . . . .
Unless you're in the UK, where self-fit AC systems aren't available. Throw in the fact that getting hold of the refridgerant isn't an easy task, and it's a lot more difficult to build a phase change system.

Why bother using water? Why not use ammonia instead?

AidanII
__________________
Any views, thoughts and opinions are entirely my own. They don't necessarily represent those of my employer (BlackBerry).
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 11:40 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Quote:
Why bother using water? Why not use ammonia instead?
Ammonia is actually a gas. The "liquid form" is a strong solution of ammonium hydroxide, which is strongly alkali. Although plenty of metals can cope with it, synthetic components such as seals and gaskets (esp in your pump) will have a hard time of it.

Pure ammonia would make a good gas/liquid system.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 03:12 PM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

Quote:
Originally posted by AidanII


Unless you're in the UK, where self-fit AC systems aren't available. Throw in the fact that getting hold of the refridgerant isn't an easy task, and it's a lot more difficult to build a phase change system.

Why bother using water? Why not use ammonia instead?

AidanII

which I am .. and I want some freon
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 06:19 PM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain


Ammonia is actually a gas. The "liquid form" is a strong solution of ammonium hydroxide, which is strongly alkali. Although plenty of metals can cope with it, synthetic components such as seals and gaskets (esp in your pump) will have a hard time of it.

Pure ammonia would make a good gas/liquid system.
Ammonia is a gas at atmosphere temperatures and pressure, but down in the depths of seriously cooled system, it would make a more suitable medium for moving heat from the CPU to the evaporator especially at such low temperatures.

AidanII
__________________
Any views, thoughts and opinions are entirely my own. They don't necessarily represent those of my employer (BlackBerry).
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 06:27 PM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Quote:
Ammonia is a gas at atmosphere temperatures and pressure, but down in the depths of seriously cooled system, it would make a more suitable medium for moving heat from the CPU to the evaporator especially at such low temperatures.
I was just looking at the "steam tables" for ammonia as I wrote that last message I couldn't work out whether you were looking at a "watercooling" system but using ammonia solution, or whether you were talking about gas/liquid cooling.

As a refrigerant, it's a very viable alternative to freon... less anaesthetic, too :nervous:
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 06:30 PM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain


I was just looking at the "steam tables" for ammonia as I wrote that last message I couldn't work out whether you were looking at a "watercooling" system but using ammonia solution, or whether you were talking about gas/liquid cooling.

As a refrigerant, it's a very viable alternative to freon... less anaesthetic, too :nervous:

I believe there are better ones, dont know their names.. but freon is somewhat dangerous.. so freon replacements are advised
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 08:16 PM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Oh, freon's great stuff! Great stuff! Need more suntan? Dump a few kilotonnes of that into the atmosphere and move to the south pole! Need a good night's sleep? This stuff makes chloroform look like a stimulant! Need a refrigerant that won't degrade, no matter how many times it's subjected to the extreme forces Joule-Thompson cooling requires? This is your chemical!

It's for this reason that 1950s fridges can still work, but one from 1995 will die after 10 years.

However, depending on the way you set it up, there are many alternatives to freon:

Ammonia
"Ether" (dimethyl ether)
Methanol (dodgy, but can be done)
Butane (booooommm)
CFCs and HCs not bound by the Montreal agreement.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 5th February, 2002, 09:15 PM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

Quote:
This stuff makes chloroform look like a stimulant!
Hell it makes a gunshot to the head look like a stimulant!
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 12:29 AM
dimmreaper's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: road to insanity
Posts: 5,347
Send a message via ICQ to dimmreaper Send a message via AIM to dimmreaper

Quote:
Originally posted by Kaitain
However, depending on the way you set it up, there are many alternatives to freon:

Ammonia
"Ether" (dimethyl ether)
Methanol (dodgy, but can be done)
Butane (booooommm)
CFCs and HCs not bound by the Montreal agreement.
You forgot water, ethanol, chlorine, LP gas, hydrogen (now thats a BOOM!!), helium, nitrogen, CO2 and just about every other liquid and gas. Some are better suited than others, but just about any could be used(though it may not be cost effective, efficient, or even safe). As I'm sure you know, one just has to set the system pressure so that the boiling point is optimal . . . .
__________________
¤ Jeffery ¤

Wishing you were someone else is a waste of the person you are. - Kurt Cobain

AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 12:49 AM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
You forgot water, ethanol, chlorine, LP gas, hydrogen (now thats a BOOM!!), helium, nitrogen, CO2 and just about every other liquid and gas. Some are better suited than others, but just about any could be used(though it may not be cost effective, efficient, or even safe). As I'm sure you know, one just has to set the system pressure so that the boiling point is optimal . . . .

Hydrogen isnt exactly a boom... on it's own it's loverly.. despite the hindumburg (ok, i cant spell it ) rumours.. that was actually caused by electricity in the fabric

Hydrogen is a fantastic fuel.. and it's only BOOMy if it's hydrogen and air mixture

how about mercury?
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 12:59 AM
Member
 
Join Date: January 2002
Location: Northern California
Posts: 37

if your going to such an extreme........buy a kyrotech case.......there you go....built in AC....
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 01:01 AM
Winkie's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: USS Great Britain, aircraft carrier, moored off the northwest coast of Europe
Posts: 987
Send a message via ICQ to Winkie Send a message via AIM to Winkie Send a message via Yahoo to Winkie

Quote:
Originally posted by panhead49
if your going to such an extreme........buy a kyrotech case.......there you go....built in AC....
yeha but where's the fun
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 01:57 AM
Holst's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Leics UK
Posts: 4,528

Quote:
Originally posted by b0bb1nz


yeha but where's the fun
Wheres that second morgage ?

If you buy a couple of old freesers you can make your own buget Cryotherm, thats fun and very cold and lots of fun.
Especially if you cool at 220watt peltier with the evaporator.
__________________
No longer Epox Tech.

Best of luck in the future all my friends.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 6th February, 2002, 02:06 AM
dimmreaper's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: road to insanity
Posts: 5,347
Send a message via ICQ to dimmreaper Send a message via AIM to dimmreaper

Quote:
Originally posted by b0bb1nz
Hydrogen is a fantastic fuel.. and it's only BOOMy if it's hydrogen and air mixture.
Well hydrogen and oxygen are "boomy" because combustion is basically rapid and violent oxidization. A hydrogen powered internal combustion engine is nearly pollution free(nitrogen oxygen combustion byproducts would be the only pollutants), as two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule become two water molecules when burnt.

Gasoline on the other hand is a simple hydro-carbonate that when combined with oxygen for combustion produces carbon-dioxide(and some carbon-monoxide, especially when improperly tuned) as well as water vapor and nitrogen oxygen byproducts.

Methanol and other alcohols are not all that dissimilar from gasoline hydro-carbonates, they just already have some oxygen atoms of there own, which is why less power is extracted from any volume of alcohol than from the same volume of gasoline. However the oxygen in alcohol makes it burn cooler, and also makes it more difficult to ignite, these attributes make it a very high octane fuel well suited for high static compression ratios and supercharging. The "intercooling" effect of alcohol evaporating in an engines intake manifold is another reason why it is the perfect fuel for supercharging applications.

Diesel fuel and Kerosene are hydro-carbonates just like Gasoline, though there molecules are larger and more complex(less refined), which is why they are lower octane fuels. Because these fuels are of such a low octane, they must be injected in to the combustion chamber of an engine at the very end of the compression stroke, to prevent predetonation.
__________________
¤ Jeffery ¤

Wishing you were someone else is a waste of the person you are. - Kurt Cobain

AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Extreme Cooling Q & A Thread ccperf721p Cooling & Temperature Monitoring 5 30th June, 2007 08:30 PM
Extreme cooling Samuknow Cooling & Temperature Monitoring 21 29th November, 2006 03:24 PM
An extreme crash!!! gvmichel CRASHED! 4 2nd October, 2005 07:09 AM
Overclocked House Needs Extreme Cooling Uncle Bob Mookydooky's Just for laughs! 3 7th September, 2002 11:10 PM
New HSF for EXTREME O/C Orbit Cooling & Temperature Monitoring 2 6th August, 2002 11:42 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:13 AM.


Copyright ©2001 - 2010, AOA Forums
Don't Click Here Don't Click Here Either

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0