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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 15th December, 2004, 05:33 AM
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We are ignoring you.

Given a choice, I'd run two separate loops with their own pumps, but that's just me. Running a single pump with rads ahead of each of the blocks should work just fine, provided the rads are able to keep up with the load.
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Old 15th December, 2004, 06:25 AM
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AWwww my posts aren't that hard for your brains are they?!?! sadface

Well given the bonneville dual 120 is keeping my prescott at 40oC with a pelt in the loop, I'd assume that should be fine on its own, then a 120 heatercore for the 172 pelt should be fine...i suppose i could try it this way, but the flow is what gets me....and it seems like the heat would still persist past the rads...:-\ I may just try both, elliphino... and since I'm using a cathar block more flow=way cooler temps, because of the impingent design.

I think my 1048 is CHOKING on the drops now though, the big heatercore, 2 blocks and the res...I dont have a firm concept on how much one more rad will add as far as flow resistance, nor how much more powerful a 1250 is than a 1048...
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Old 25th December, 2004, 09:57 PM
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I see that I hsould be bringing down my questions a notch to get some answers, so heres something pretty simple that I should know.

I got a new radiator for xmas(woot for computer geeks and xmas), and I'm going to be upgrading to a 1250 pump, since 1 dual 120mm and 1 single 120mm rad with blocks would be quite a drop in flow ) And I'm upgrading the tec($50 gift cert to danger den ) on my 6800 to a 172W, my question relates to the radiators. The best way for fitting it into my case is to put the smaller 120 in front of the dual, and then put the single in parallel with the dual, but have a T from the out on the dual, down to the single, and off to the CPU. Then use the twice cooled water for the TEC on the video card, return both to the resevoir.

Is this good, or should I rethink the order for the rads? Will the T in the line be bad for flow?(I'm putting the pump before the CPU actually, if thats possible) I'll post a drawing(this should be good :-\) in a min. Thanks
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 25th December, 2004, 10:55 PM
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I'm not sure about the direction of flow in your diagram.
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Old 25th December, 2004, 11:24 PM
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Maybe like this?
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Old 25th December, 2004, 11:35 PM
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yes thats how I was thinking, would the rads in parallel just be a bunch of cooling in the same spot...maybe better if i put them in series before each block? but I'm to understand that parallel is less restrictive or something.

i just noticed the split after the pump, thats a nice idea, thats prolly a lot better than splitting it out of the rad and into the other. Brilliant!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 12:22 AM
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Might be better to put the pump before the rads.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 01:18 AM
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putting the rads in parallel would make less restriction.

i have another idea that might be better, not sure though, but im sure that ive seen it done somehwere before...
credit to danrok for the pic.

having two smaller pumps would give high pressure to each of the waterblocks. instead of having the pressure and the flow split in half as in danrok's pic. (this is probably how i would set it up if i ever dive into water cooling)
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 01:46 AM
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idk if I can do two pumps. Wouldn't putting the pumps after the rad's give 50-50ish pressure to the blocks anyways? My CPU block is impigent(sp) so the more flow the better, maybe I should put the small rad before the CPU and the big one before the GPU pelt?

ACtually if I pick up a res(ne one know where I can get a reallly small one[no fillports]) I can just run two seperate loops...that might simplify things. Put the 1250 on the CPU after the small rad, and my current dying 1048 after the dual rad to the block...

anyone got a pretty definitive answer?
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 04:00 AM
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My idea is similar to Danrok's, but with the pump in a slightly different spot.

Basically, the idea is to suck water out of the res, and pump it TO the CPU and GPU. This allows you to deliver pressure to the blocks. If you put the pump AFTER the CPU and GPU, then you aren't delivering pressure to the blocks; you are delivering vacuum, because you are sucking the water through the block instead of pushing it through. Impingement blocks work better with pressure. If it was a pin block (or even a maze type design), it wouldn't matter.

You put the radiators in series, even though it increases your pressure drop, because you are going to handle a LOT of heat, and you need all the surface area you can get, but you need ALL of the water to go through ALL of the radiators in order to stand a chance of getting rid of it all. You go through the small rad first because of the fact that it has the least surface area. To get the most effect from it, you've got to have the greatest temp differential (means you need to run the hottest stuff through it first). Then you let the dual rad finish it off.

Placement of the rads is critical. Do NOT put the rads in front of each other (so that the hot air exhaust from one rad becomes the cool air intake from the other rad). This may seem rather obvious, but I've seen several systems where people did exactly that, not realizing that they were defeating the purpose of having two rads.

You may have to play with tubing sizes or valves a little bit in order to get the water flow balanced the way you want it. Most likely, you are going to want to let the TEC for the GPU block get pretty hot, otherwise you'll end up cooking your CPU. I would put a valve in the loop for the GPU, right before the 'T' going into the rads.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 06:57 AM
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yup, i was hoping to put the pressure right onto the CPU block, but does the TEC on the GPU really care that much about flow? Its sorta moot I guess, and the idea of it sucking outta the res is prolly the best idea because if its sitting in the res(as little difference as it makes) its not 'warming up' beacuse its not goin through a rad, since the best temp possible is room temp(at least for the water...).
Now I'm beginning to knock around the idea of the dominator again, since I do have tons of surface area if its just a CPU tec, and I saw that with a dual rad slightly smaller than mine the guy achieved 0oC, low temps load(gettin 0 is really just a conception, since low temps are just nice, doesn't have to be 0 necissarily). Having another rad in the case could help get rid of more heat, seems like I'd have enough surface area.

I guess I got time to think on it...I think I like the pump right into the blocks idea best, and I guess if the blocks are after the pump, and the rads in the end, the flow loss of the rads wont matter much will it, since its fresh off the pump? So series rads after the loop to the res, pump into the blocks should be good, provided I still use the GPU tec and CPU block, and not the dominator.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 01:03 PM
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Just a few comments to make. I've done no calculations and I have a monster of a hangover so I readily expect to have made some errors here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
Basically, the idea is to suck water out of the res, and pump it TO the CPU and GPU. This allows you to deliver pressure to the blocks. If you put the pump AFTER the CPU and GPU, then you aren't delivering pressure to the blocks; you are delivering vacuum, because you are sucking the water through the block instead of pushing it through. Impingement blocks work better with pressure. If it was a pin block (or even a maze type design), it wouldn't matter.
You cannot guarantee that you'll be getting the right flow to the right block with a simple Y-splitter. You're right that it's a good idea to put the pump before the waterblocks as they will incur some pressure/flow drop across them and they are the point in the system that cannot afford to have serious loss of flow. I would suggest putting in some valves to allow you to balance the flows manually.

In some designs, the pump is placed before the radiator and the radiator feeds the CPU block. The argument for this is that the pumps use the pumped fluid for their own cooling (can be significant) so to get the very best performance, you need to get rid of this heat before you start cooling the waterblocks. In this system, the presence of the TECs make this couple of Celsius heat due to the pump less significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
You put the radiators in series, even though it increases your pressure drop, because you are going to handle a LOT of heat, and you need all the surface area you can get, but you need ALL of the water to go through ALL of the radiators in order to stand a chance of getting rid of it all. You go through the small rad first because of the fact that it has the least surface area. To get the most effect from it, you've got to have the greatest temp differential (means you need to run the hottest stuff through it first). Then you let the dual rad finish it off.
If you put both radiators into series you will get no flow in the system at all - depending on the internal dimensions of the radiator you may see a vast pressure drop across it. Every U bend in the radiator will incur a pressure drop. Any time the internal diameter changes you will see a large pressure drop, and also there's a lot of pipe in each radiator, every inch of which drops the pressure. As your flow rate is directly proportional to the pressure of the water you have to balance the amount of radiator you push water through with the speed of flow you get at the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
You may have to play with tubing sizes or valves a little bit in order to get the water flow balanced the way you want it. Most likely, you are going to want to let the TEC for the GPU block get pretty hot, otherwise you'll end up cooking your CPU. I would put a valve in the loop for the GPU, right before the 'T' going into the rads.
Didn't spot this point at first. With respect to valves, I would put valves in for regulating flow before both loops, so that you can tweak each independently, and isolate an entire loop if necessary. I would also put in a pair of valves at the inlet and outlet of every single item - this means you can dismantle the system without fully draining it, replace faulty components quickly or swap bits around until it works the way you want faster than if you had a straight system.

Of course each valve also incurs a pressure drop.

In my example below - which I do NOT recommend gets used without further design - I've separated the CPU and GPU loop entirely. They can be run independently for testing purposes. The accumulator at the start is there to smoothe out any ripples/pulses in flow or pressure coming from the pump and ensures that the inlet valve to each loop receives an equal share of the flow. The actual flow rate in each loop is controlled entirely by these valves. The accumulator is the point of highest pressure in the system and so the point at which failure due to leakage/pipes detaching or rupture will occur. You can move it outside of the case for safety.

Each loop is a simple pump - block - rad - res arrangement, with one radiator on each part. You can easily add components in as necessary, or just as easily turn it into a two-pump system. If you add a second radiator to the CPU loop, consider an additional pump before the radiators to keep things flowing. If you do, I would recommend a small header before the pump to ensure that it never tries to pump vacuum. Nothing kills a pump faster than cavitation.

To summarise:
1) Never rely on pipework to regulate flows - always use valves.
2) Radiators will incur large pressure drops which equal large flow rate drops. You need all the flow rate you can get, so try to minimise it, or add pumps where you can't.
3) Design your system so that it can be altered/expanded easily. Isolation valves are your friends
4) Always place a header before pumps to prevent cavitation.

With that in mind, have a picture
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 07:49 PM
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Now THAT is some indepth stuff. First problem i see is that I would have to make another barb on my res, Its doable, but I'd like to avoid it, but also wouldn't 2 in 1 out make the res overflow? Or maybe at that point the speed its going out is way faster than coming in? With that many valves, wont that take up a lot of room? Maybe my mental image of a pipe valve is too big, I'll have to look at one. But to the meat of it...

Basically what you're saying is to get valves on all parts of the system for 1.) easy addition of new parts and 2.) in some parts control the flow to allow for the best temp/pressure drop combination?

also rads in parallel decrease the drop in pressure? How could that be if each bend and curve still exists to hinder the flow? Isn't that just putting a bunch of them in a line one after another only to exit at one spot?

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/pro...source=froogle
maybe this is a good example of a gate valve?
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2004, 08:03 PM
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The res can't overflow because there is a fixed volume of water in the system.

As for pressure dropping with the rads in series - I would trust what Kaitain says because he is an engineer.
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Old 26th December, 2004, 08:26 PM
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There's a ball valve here as well:
http://www.watercoolingshop.com/cata...05ad04e1e994a6

I don't know if you can use these to adjust the flow.
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Old 26th December, 2004, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitain
If you put both radiators into series you will get no flow in the system at all - depending on the internal dimensions of the radiator you may see a vast pressure drop across it. Every U bend in the radiator will incur a pressure drop. Any time the internal diameter changes you will see a large pressure drop, and also there's a lot of pipe in each radiator, every inch of which drops the pressure. As your flow rate is directly proportional to the pressure of the water you have to balance the amount of radiator you push water through with the speed of flow you get at the end.
Yes and no. Depends on the radiator design. I use regular car heater cores, which are a flat tube arrangement. The pressure drop across this kind of rad is very low. I have two of these in my system in series right now, and they work very well. My main concern with running two rads in parallel is that he'll end up in a situation where he isn't getting maximum cooling because the water isn't staying in the rad long enough. Of course, valves could be used to help this situation, but we will get to that in a moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitain
Didn't spot this point at first. With respect to valves, I would put valves in for regulating flow before both loops, so that you can tweak each independently, and isolate an entire loop if necessary. I would also put in a pair of valves at the inlet and outlet of every single item - this means you can dismantle the system without fully draining it, replace faulty components quickly or swap bits around until it works the way you want faster than if you had a straight system.

Of course each valve also incurs a pressure drop.
Aye, there's the rub. Each valve is a flow restriction, and it is significant (more so than a turn or two of tubing). I would think the reduced flow from all those valves would be even worse than the pressure drop from the rads in series.
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Old 26th December, 2004, 08:59 PM
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I think that with Kaitain's design approximately half the heat goes to one rad and the rest of the heat to the other rad. So, the heat is split between the two rads.
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Old 26th December, 2004, 11:02 PM
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eek I didn't mean the res would overflow beacuse of magic water I meant the system would empty in parts and fill the res, but then I guess it can't really empty in parts...so skip that. Wouldn't keeping exactly 1/2" ID tubing not cause much pressure drop at all on each, since it doesn't change diameter at all?

I am using heatercores from cars(at least they look like it....) so hopefully the pressure drops will be less with these. I'll wait to see how this discussion continues before I can make a more clear decision. I do like half and half rads though, with one pump.
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Old 26th December, 2004, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrok
I think that with Kaitain's design approximately half the heat goes to one rad and the rest of the heat to the other rad. So, the heat is split between the two rads.
But one of the rads has twice the surface area of the other one. Assuming that the large rad is twice the size of the small one, you want 1/3 of the water going through the small rad, and the remainder going through the large rad.

All else being equal, if they are both regular tubing type rads, then the larger rad will have roughly twice the flow resistance of the smaller rad. However, if they are the flat-tube rads like what I use, it is more likely that the large rad will actually have roughly HALF the resistance of the small rad. (Flat-tube construction is generally a two-pass affair, so a larger rad will have more tubes in parallel on each pass, reducing flow resistance).
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Old 26th December, 2004, 11:29 PM
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Just make a test setup with your pump drawing water from a bucket and pushing it through both rads. See what the flow is like coming out the other end.
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