AOA Forums AOA Forums AOA Forums Folding For Team 45 AOA Files Home Front Page Become an AOA Subscriber! UserCP Calendar Memberlist FAQ Search Forum Home


Go Back   AOA Forums > Hardware > Cooling & Temperature Monitoring


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 13th April, 2005, 09:54 PM
Gizmo's Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
BassTeroids Champion, Global Player Champion, Aim & Fire Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Othello Champion, Canyon Glider Champion, Unicycle Challenge Champion, YetiSports 9: Final Spit Champion, Zed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Webb City, Mo
Posts: 16,178
Send a message via ICQ to Gizmo Send a message via AIM to Gizmo Send a message via MSN to Gizmo Send a message via Yahoo to Gizmo Send a message via Skype™ to Gizmo

Anything containing mercury would be highly toxic, and their literature specifically says that it is non-toxic. What little I've been able to find suggests that the coolant is actually oil carrying micronized metal.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 02:27 AM
Rondog's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: January 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
Posts: 3,298
Send a message via MSN to Rondog

IT cant be murcury, murcury is deadly. Gallium and Fluroine, possible.
__________________
AOA Team fah

Rig 1: Intel Core i5 750,4gb,HD6870,500gb,W7 Ult x64
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 03:16 AM
keithwalton's Avatar
Member/Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 2,257
Send a message via ICQ to keithwalton Send a message via MSN to keithwalton Send a message via Yahoo to keithwalton

Interesting tech, some figures would be nice, I suppose its for directional thermal conductivity as for onmidirectional you just cant beat solid's such as silver, copper, gold and aluminium. (about 300-400w/m/k) (all temperature dependant).
As for the effect pressure on boiling point this is where a PVT (pressure-volume-temperature) plot comes in handy. Every element and every alloy is different and responds to pressure differently. Its a right ass for engineers! some porpa has to test pieces and come up with the handy plots.

Edit - To put an end to the mercury debate, they state that the metal has a boiling point in excess of 2000 celsius, mercury goes bye z bye at 357
http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-cha...ling-point.htm

Edit mk2 - Handy flash site of themeral conductivity (i assume its at rtp)
http://www.webelements.com/webelemen...ductivity.html

Gallium is ~ 29 w/m/k which is around about where steel is a full 10x lower than copper / silver bunch
__________________
ASUS P5W DH (i975X) - Core 2 Quad Q6600 (2.40GHz) Currently 3GHz under water hit 3.3GHz so far - 2x 1GB OCZ PC6400's - 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB's - Sapphire Radeon x1900xt now water cooled
AOA Team fah

Last edited by keithwalton; 14th April, 2005 at 03:47 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 04:01 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
Interesting tech, some figures would be nice, I suppose its for directional thermal conductivity as for onmidirectional you just cant beat solid's such as silver, copper and aluminium. (about 300w/k) (all temperature dependant).
As for the effect pressure on boiling point this is where a PVT (pressure-volume-temperature) plot comes in handy. Every element and every alloy is different and responds to pressure differently. Its a right ass for engineers! some porpa has to test pieces and come up with the handy plots.
I know them well, though they're not used so much in favour of fast computers and a bunch of lookup tables providing constants for virial state equations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
Edit - To put an end to the mercury debate, they state that the metal has a boiling point in excess of 2000 celsius, mercury goes bye z bye at 357
http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-cha...ling-point.htm
Also from Perry's table 2-280, but I didn't check that
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 04:14 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

I looked up an MSDS for Gallium(III) Fluoride, which appears to be the only one commercially available. It's not nice stuff either - harmful to skin, decomposes to hydrogen fluoride in contact with moisture or fire, causes a bunch of physiological effects.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 04:40 AM
WonderBread's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: December 2004
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 1,657
Send a message via MSN to WonderBread Send a message via Yahoo to WonderBread

ouch! i knew i shouldnt have messed with that stuff
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 14th April, 2005, 11:17 PM
keithwalton's Avatar
Member/Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 2,257
Send a message via ICQ to keithwalton Send a message via MSN to keithwalton Send a message via Yahoo to keithwalton

MSDS is that like COSHH? (Control of Substances Hazerdous to Health)

One thing that has sprung to mind is that we have, Alu / copper hybrid heatsinks, and we did yonks ago have silver pads on slot heatsinks. I was wondering if there is scope for a high end heatsink thats a hybrid of silver with alu or copper
__________________
ASUS P5W DH (i975X) - Core 2 Quad Q6600 (2.40GHz) Currently 3GHz under water hit 3.3GHz so far - 2x 1GB OCZ PC6400's - 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB's - Sapphire Radeon x1900xt now water cooled
AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 15th April, 2005, 01:30 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
MSDS is that like COSHH? (Control of Substances Hazerdous to Health)
Material Safety Data Sheet. It's required under the COSHH and equivalent legislation to be provided by suppliers of chemicals (without cost) to interested parties so that they can determine the hazards and risks of using and keeping it. It includes basic properties of a material such as its boiling and melting points, specific gravity, vapour pressure at ambient and flash point. Also includes forms of harm the material may cause to both humans and the environment. Should be able to find a few on google, otherwise register with Sigma-Aldrich at http://www.sigma.com if you need them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwalton
One thing that has sprung to mind is that we have, Alu / copper hybrid heatsinks, and we did yonks ago have silver pads on slot heatsinks. I was wondering if there is scope for a high end heatsink thats a hybrid of silver with alu or copper
As you'll know from your degree, the slowest stage in the transfer of heat from the CPU to bulk air determines the rate at which the entire system transfers heat. The slowest step is the forced convective flux from metal to air.

It doesn't matter if an intermediate stage can move heat about fastest, the rate is always determined by this slowest point.

When copper first started to become available, so much nonsense was said of its finer points and performance, largely due to "testers" not allowing the system to reach steady-state prior to conducting their "test". Additionally, heatsinks were produced that included flaps of copper here or there to be fashionable, yet these, if anything, performed worse.

The reasons copper is so much better as a heatsink material are matters of design.

* Copper is a much harder, but also more malleable material. You can afford to design a system with much thinner fins and base without compromising mechanical strength, increasing the fin density and thus massively increasing the surface area in contact with air. Look at the old Aluminium heat sinks and note that they maybe cram 10 or 12 fat fins into the same space a budget copper HS crams 20 fins or more.

* Copper does have an advantage in thermal conductivity, it's true - this allows the minimum fin thickness to be reduced, but has little other advantage since heat flux through any material other than rubber is faster than the flux to air.

* Mechanically, copper is a nicer material to work with. Not least, it's so much easier to polish; lapping or whatever. It will also maintain this sheen long enough to get some thermal goop onto it and get it onto the CPU. Aluminium will always have its oxide layer, since it's so reactive.

A move to silver or silver alloy shouldn't even really be contemplated as a result. All you'd be doing is adding material cost for no real benefit where the design is concerned.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 15th April, 2005, 03:41 AM
keithwalton's Avatar
Member/Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Southampton, UK
Posts: 2,257
Send a message via ICQ to keithwalton Send a message via MSN to keithwalton Send a message via Yahoo to keithwalton

I agree in the weakest link bit being the limiting factor. I'm dont have any exact specs to hand over modern heatsinks but they should be fairly well balanced if there engineer has done there fea calculations correctly. The reason I say this is because the surface area of metal -> air, is much greater than semiconductor -> metal.
The whole thing will be in series with different thermal resistances for each stage all adding up to a total thermal resistance.

Copper's big disadvantage is weight, there is only so much that can be supported. This is where hybrids come into effect, you use a copper core to get the heat off the chip, then use a much larger transfer area to aluminium where you can afford to have a larger surface area than you would if you used just copper.

I have noticed all oem hs' from intel of late are of the hybrid design, they also switched from alu to copper heatspreaders with the prescott for the same reason.
Interesting to note also the dual core chip kicks out 130w compared to the highend singles ~115w and yet it runs quite abit cooler since the die surface area is twice the size.
I do remember back in the day when the first 130nm amd's were rolling off the line and because the athlon had such a small die they were haveing big issues with the tbred and getting heat away from its core. They soon fixed it with the tbred 'b' mind.

I suppose silver is v.expensive not to mention heavy as well and has heaps of over mechanical issues to consider, just its thermal conductivity is so high relative to other solids.
__________________
ASUS P5W DH (i975X) - Core 2 Quad Q6600 (2.40GHz) Currently 3GHz under water hit 3.3GHz so far - 2x 1GB OCZ PC6400's - 2x Seagate 7200.10 320GB's - Sapphire Radeon x1900xt now water cooled
AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 15th April, 2005, 05:10 AM
Kaitain's Avatar
Member
Mars Rover Champion, Joust Champion
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: MK10, UK.
Posts: 4,372
Send a message via MSN to Kaitain Send a message via Skype™ to Kaitain

I can understand using compatible metals for a hybrid design - brazing or welding copper to silver, zinc, steel, tin or alkaline metals is fine. You cannot weld/braze/solder aluminium to anything except itself or (occasionally) alloys of itself. The best you can hope for under these circumstances is some sort of interference fit. Well done, these things are great, but I often doubt the quality of manufacture of heat sinks. I also doubt that an engineer has ever been asked to look at their design.
__________________
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 18th April, 2005, 03:48 PM
cloasters's Avatar
Asst. BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 21,956

LOL! A radioactive isotope of Caesium would be better, say the green sliming aliens. With a couple of weak solder joints, fun for the whole family!
__________________
When the world will be better.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 21st April, 2005, 04:01 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 54

err.. what happens when you mix the two??
__________________
[s754 A64 3000+] [Radeon 9500 pro agp8x] [Soyo CK8 Dragon+] [512mb pc3200 2.0 3 3 8ram][Audigy LS] [Raidmax 868 Scorpio case] [40gb 2mb cache Maxtor, 120gb WD 8mb cache] [DVD, CD-RW]
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 21st April, 2005, 02:02 PM
MONKEYMAN's Avatar
Member
5 Card Draw Champion, Tomb Digger Champion, Alpha Force Champion, Autobahn Champion, Big Bird Hunting Champion, Mumu Champion, Attack of the Tweety Zombies Champion
 
Join Date: January 2005
Location: DORSET, UK
Posts: 2,170

Boom
__________________
AM2 X2 4000
2GB DDR2
NVIDIA 6150 ONBOARD!

Join our F@H team today.. http://www.team45.info/
Are you a subscriber? No? well then, why not....
Subscribe to AOA for a better experience and faster downloads!
How to unlock and overclock your Nvidia 6800
BIOS Volt-mod your 7800gt

AOA Team fah
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:34 AM.


Copyright ©2001 - 2010, AOA Forums
Don't Click Here Don't Click Here Either

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0