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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 25th July, 2002, 05:59 AM
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"The ideal water block"

I'm designing a new water block (for commercializing), my goal is to maximize heat transfer inducing as much turbulent water flow as possible without creating too much flow resistance, I would like to know what are your thoughts on a couple of issues, please help me to give you what you want in a water block:

1 - How would you like a block that is one piece only (avoiding any leaks)? Do you feel the need to open your block for cleaning (or whatever) from time to time?

2 - What is your preferred retention system and why? I have some new designs here but there are no pictures available yet. The link below has images of some well known water blocks from various companies, they're all nice blocks, each one has it's own retention system. Please take a look and tell me wich one you like most and why, also any new ideas are welcome. I'm not going to copy anyone else's retention system, this post is just some research about the what the public want in a water block.
http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/bj...aterblocks.htm

3 - What would you like to be the diameter of the hose fittings: 3/8 or 1/2?

My water blocks for cooling CPU, chipset and GPU will be available next week, I will post pictures when they're ready. I will also be making water cooled PSUs.

Thank you
Bruno Facca
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Last edited by Bruno Facca; 25th July, 2002 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 25th July, 2002, 12:28 PM
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1: 1 piece does prevent leaks. But I do like the idea of being able to easily clean out the block of corrosion, scale, and and algea that may grow.

2: Definately the 4 hole method. its MUCH safer

3: Either, is what i tend to favour. But many people use 3/8 how about making that an option?

As to design, Kaitain and I have some impressive ideas. Just need to find a source for certain bits and bobs.... Im not sure if its been tried, but an open block (no channels) with many small protrusions from the base may work well but would be hard to machine out.

Im putting togeather a waterblock shootout at Spodes Abode in the next couple of weeks, if you want i could include your block in the line up! Might get you a few more people interested in the block. What kind of price do you wish to retail them for? And i like the watercooled PSU idea!
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Last edited by Random Nonsense; 25th July, 2002 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 25th July, 2002, 02:35 PM
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@Random Nonsense:

I know one piece doesn't eliminate the chance of any leaks but it makes it harder, the only place where you could get a leak would be the hose fittings.

I made an open block once, it didn't have much protrusions in the base but it worked ok. I can make almost any block I can think of, the only limitation is a minimum wall diameter of around 3mm, I don't know the right word for this in english but I will melt the copper so I can put it in any desired form.

I sure would like my water block to be included in your shootout, I will e-mail you with pics and all kinds of info next week.

The price for the first 50 units will be real cheap and I'm sure you will like the quality of the product, it will be around US***15 (no shipping included).

Thanks
Bruno Facca
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Old 25th July, 2002, 04:00 PM
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you mean your doing it the cast and mold method?
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Old 25th July, 2002, 04:33 PM
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Careful guys.... This thread is getting close to promotion of a product from a non-allie member. Please read the forum rules before this takes an ugly turn.

As for design... provided the seal is proper I think 2 piece construction is the best. I am running a Maze 3 and I love it.

I've always thought a spiral design, moving water from the outside edge to the center would be a great design. It allows for a lot of surface area and turbulence.
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Old 25th July, 2002, 05:21 PM
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Southern Man, i think we are still on OK grounds, since SA is an allied site, we will be mentioning prices etc in the shootout.
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Undergoing overhaul. Hard Locking to 13.5X multiplier for theoretical clockrate of 1944mhz 144mhz FSB

1X Duron 1.3 AHCLA "9" @ 1430mhz

1X Celeron 1000mhz

1X Pentium3 450 DECEASED

Folding Under AOA-UK for team 45!



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Old 25th July, 2002, 08:15 PM
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My bad then. No site url in signature so I wasn't aware he was with SA.

Glad I didn't really show my butt and scold you guys. I would have to crawl under a rock for a while after that infraction.

I'm going to guess and say the shootout is going on at SA or am I really that out of touch with things? :nervous:
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Old 25th July, 2002, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Southern Man
I've always thought a spiral design, moving water from the outside edge to the center would be a great design. It allows for a lot of surface area and turbulence.
That's all good and fine, but the water is supposed to go from the center to the outer edge. That way the coolest water is dumped over the CPU core If you've got it wrong replumb it for a 1-2C drop in core temperature
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Old 25th July, 2002, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Random Nonsense
Im not sure if its been tried, but an open block (no channels) with many small protrusions from the base may work well but would be hard to machine out.
I've tried that, it worked well. I machined a waffle grid of cubed shaped "protrusions"(using a 0.090" carbon steel blade in a horizontal mill) that acted as turbulators and increased surface area by over 60%. Then I sand blasted it with coarse sand with low pressure, I figure I got roughly 100% total more surface area than a flat plate and mucho turbulance. I cut the extra cubes off by mounting the plate in a 4-jaw chuck in a small lathe, and then I capped it off with a 3" copper pipe cap that I reduced to only 0.500" depth. Performance was on par with maze and encased cylindrical heatsink designs.

The real problem seems to be getting heat from the CPU and to the heatsink/waterblock. The thermal junction between the CPU and waterblock just isn't moving enough heat with such low mounting pressure. It seems that no matter what design I try my hand at these days, I'm hitting the wall.
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Old 26th July, 2002, 03:36 AM
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@Phiber: I looked up the word for my manufacturing method in english and yes, I'm casting.

@Southern Man: I tried to maximize the surface area in the block I designed too, the kind of surface I created for this is kind of hard to explain using words but in 4 or 5 days I will have some pics available. I'm expecting some kick ass results from this new desing.

Thanks for your feedback everyone, please keep posting.
Bruno Facca
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Old 26th July, 2002, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
That's all good and fine, but the water is supposed to go from the center to the outer edge. That way the coolest water is dumped over the CPU core If you've got it wrong replumb it for a 1-2C drop in core temperature
I've seen many a debate over this issue and I prefer to pull from the hottest point as opposed to dumping cooler liquid on top of the area where the most heat is. I guess it's all in how you look at it. I've never been one for extremes but more at warming up to a point then pulling out from there. I know there are many who would disagree but I'm funny like that. Go figure....

Think about it, you are circulating the water from the hottest point in the block to the least. A fire fighter would tell you thats the way to go. Aren't you just sending heat to other areas in the waterblock where you will need to cool anyway? I think gradually warming the water to the hottest point and pulling from there is the way to go. Dosen't it take less energy to warm water gradually as opposed to bringing cold water to a boil. Something to do with calories as I remember. I guess I'm just bass ackwards.
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Last edited by Southern Man; 26th July, 2002 at 05:51 AM.
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Old 26th July, 2002, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Southern Man
Aren't you just sending heat to other areas in the waterblock where you will need to cool anyway?
The purpose is not to cool the whole block, but to cool the core. If copper were a perfect thermal conductor it wouldn't matter which hose went where, but it isn't so it does. The cooler you get that little spot just above the core, the greater the delta across the thermal junction, the better heat transfers across the junction, the cooler the core will be. Don't take my word for it, just try it.
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Old 26th July, 2002, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
I've tried that, it worked well. I machined a waffle grid of cubed shaped "protrusions"(using a 0.090" carbon steel blade in a horizontal mill) that acted as turbulators and increased surface area by over 60%. Then I sand blasted it with coarse sand with low pressure, I figure I got roughly 100% total more surface area than a flat plate and mucho turbulance. I cut the extra cubes off by mounting the plate in a 4-jaw chuck in a small lathe, and then I capped it off with a 3" copper pipe cap that I reduced to only 0.500" depth. Performance was on par with maze and encased cylindrical heatsink designs.

The real problem seems to be getting heat from the CPU and to the heatsink/waterblock. The thermal junction between the CPU and waterblock just isn't moving enough heat with such low mounting pressure. It seems that no matter what design I try my hand at these days, I'm hitting the wall.
This is about what i was going to say.

You can build a "uber block" with very high surface area flowrate and goor turbulance but you wont see any appreciable gains in temperature (or overclokcing performance) mainly due to the ineficency in the thermal junction between the core and waterblock.
It is that thermal interface that I would concentrate on as thats where big gains can be made. Spend a significant ammount of time testing mounting methods and pressures, i have had a 5*c drop in load temp just from altering the way my maze-2 mounts, many times more than any waterblock design changes will give.

Most blocks are designed to give good performance at reduced cost, there is no point in paying double in manufacturing costs and materials for a 0.5 to 0.1*c drop in temp.

If you are aiming for the ultimate waterblock then design one for peltier usage. I think there are still significant advances to be made in the design of peltier blocks.

Id be very interested in the performance of a cast waterblock, can you give us a little more info on your methods and materials ?
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Old 26th July, 2002, 11:30 AM
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southern man, he isnt with SA, just SA is gonna review his block, since SA will be mentioning price, i see no problem with it being mentioned here. But if daniel~ says different thats how it will be.
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Dual XP1600+ AGOIA "Y" @ 1875mhz WATERCOOLED 33C LOAD

Undergoing overhaul. Hard Locking to 13.5X multiplier for theoretical clockrate of 1944mhz 144mhz FSB

1X Duron 1.3 AHCLA "9" @ 1430mhz

1X Celeron 1000mhz

1X Pentium3 450 DECEASED

Folding Under AOA-UK for team 45!



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Old 26th July, 2002, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holst
If you are aiming for the ultimate waterblock then design one for peltier usage. I think there are still significant advances to be made in the design of peltier blocks.
Definitely, there are huge gains that can be made in TEC blocks. The big problem with TECs is keeping the hot side cool. Most waterblocks are designed with not more than 120W in mind so they can't keep a large TEC or a couple large TECs nearly cool enough. The actual thermal load that a TEC puts on a cooling solution is VxI+Q (V=voltage I=current Q=pumping ability at that V). So a single 172W TEC doesn't put a 172W load on a cooling solution, no it puts a 450W load on the solution! (24.6x11.3+172)

Heatpipes with a remote heatexchanger, like those used in the new Shuttle small-form-factor barebones chassis, would be an awesome solution for serious TECage I think.
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Old 27th July, 2002, 02:30 AM
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@Holst: First of all let me tell you that english is not my native language so there are some technical words I don't know.
I coudln't agree more with you about the thermal junction thing, once just for tighetening a bolt a little more I got an extra 3ºC so that's what I'm studiyng right now as the block itself will be ready for casting in 3-5 days. About my methods: copper melts at 1058ºC so I made an industrial oven (I think that's the word), it works on butane, it is only turned on to melt more than 7kg of copper (the block will be about 500g). The mold is made of a special material that is soft when you put your model in, then you heat it a little with a blowtorch and it gets very hard, you take your model off and you have a "negative" of it, that is the mold where the hot copper is put, when it's cold you just take it off the mold and it's ready, after that the holes are made using an industrial table top driller, than the screws (again I'm not sure if this is the right word) for the bolts to fit in is made using another tool, the hose fittings are applied to the top on pressure and welded on the down side of the top to make sure there are no leaks even if you put *a lot* of strain on them, after that comes lapping the bottom for getting a surface that is as even as possible, this is made using several kinds of sandpaper after that some details like putting the rubber on the block/top junction, finally the whole thing is polished.

I would like to know what everyone thinks about a silver (just the color, the block will be entirely made of copper of course) block, I was thinking of maybe giving it a bath in melted solder (as in the metal used for soldering), not the bottom OF COURSE it's much harder to oxide than copper and in my opinion it looks better, just crossed my mind, what you think?

Thank you!
Bruno Facca
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Old 27th July, 2002, 04:10 AM
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If you want the silver look, simply cover the base in wax, and electroplate chrome on to the exposed parts of the block

As far as "industrial oven", that's close, but blast furnace is probably what you mean . . .
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Old 27th July, 2002, 06:19 AM
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i dezined a dual channel block that the channels split off and come back together, and its awesome! if you havnet seen Hoots waterblock roundup, its not in there, it mite not go in there because its a homemade block, but i had it cnc milled, and i sent it over to Hoot, and he tested it, and got .15c/w in his system, that was BEFORE i cut out the flow restriction... if your interested i would make a deal with ya'

click my www(i think its in there, if not ill fix it) its on the home page of the site me and a few guys are putting up, its basicly making it look nice till we get everything up and running rite... but that pic is before i cut out the flow restrictions
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Old 27th July, 2002, 06:35 AM
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@dimmreaper: Yes, your link describes it exactly, I'm using a blast furnace. I never did any chrome stuff, maybe I'll learn it.

@everyone: I made sketches of the block and of 2 retention mechanism ideas I had today, some detail is lacking in the block because I had no time for doing a better model in 3dsmax. Please give me some feedback.

http://paginas.terra.com.br/lazer/bjfacca/preview.jpg

If the image doesn't load go here http://planeta.terra.com.br/lazer/bjfacca/

Thanks
Bruno Facca
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Last edited by Bruno Facca; 27th July, 2002 at 06:38 AM.
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Old 27th July, 2002, 06:41 AM
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actually with smooth channels and high pressure flow you get massive turblience! thats why they dont make blocks like that one...
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