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CRASHED! A topic for SEVERE and immediate Hardware and Operating System FAILURES. We will try to get you up again. NOT for Optimization questions!


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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 9th August, 2011, 09:58 PM
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Angry Suspected PSU Failure, Rosewill RG-530

Greetings all , I know I haven't been around much in the past as things get out of hand with life and so forth. Yet, I come with an issue regarding my Power Supply, or unexpectedly so. Don't mind the long winded post - just everything I've experienced recently with this desktop.

To start, here are my System Specs:
Opteron170 @ 2.71Ghz/1.35v
--AVC 4-Heatpipe Cooler [Z8UH408003]
XFX Nvidia GTX260 Black Edition [729/1458/1240]
ASRock 939Dual-SataII [Modded Bios 0.4xx]
2x512 OCZ-EL pc3200 + 2x512 Corsair-CMS pc3200
Rosewill RG530-2 [530w-41A]
74gb Western Digital [E-IDE]
Mitsumi 5.25" Floppy Drive [Nostalgia Sakes]
Yamaha YMF-724 PCI SoundCard
Hyundai ImageQuest p910+ 17" CRT @ 2048x1536
Windows XP-SP2 [nLited]

Now - Everything has been running quite nicely and stable for the last 2 years. However - ever since I'd moved things are getting awkward with it.

For starters - I'm now in a motel with lots of dust buildup over time and pretty crappy power [bricked a good router due to a rolling power-out here as it is despite using a surge protector. Was beyond JTag recovery ].

Was hooking up a headphone extension cable only to get a pulsing shock when I touched the tip of the other end when raised in the air. I thought something was getting grounded out - so pulled the whole desktop apart, cleaned every component again, made sure everything was properly seated and not grounding to the case for whatever reason. Stopped getting it till the next day so chalked it up to the building wiring not being grounded.

Anywho - down the line, started getting instabilities. Lockups and the like mainly with driver related issues [Driver IRQL not less than or equal] with the Ethernet drivers. After much headache comes out somehow I forgot to plug in the Northbridge Fan I attached long ago [that was an embarrassing realization] so that was an overheating issue on that regard. Worked great for a few weeks until lockups started happening but this time it was Machine-Check BSoD's. This was NOT good - and started to get me upset.

Pulled the comp apart again, everything was clean, neat, secure - the usual. Replaced the TIM on the CPU to be sure, opened up my GPU to clean out the dustbunny in there, redo the TIM, and even set all clocks back to default for the time to narrow down it being an overclock issue over time. Started getting them again during gaming - which was beginning to bother me even more so.

So, deal with those issues for another week till it got to the point of becoming unbearable. Same BSoD - same machine check errors. However, was taking note that after being under load a for a bit during gaming - the GPU fan would suddenly shut off. Oddly enough while under load over 5-10mins the fan was reacting backwards meaning using Rivatuner to set it back on resulted in the fan going back to 100% when setting to 0% fan duty while 100% duty resulted in the fan shutting off. I set scheduling to rectify this issue with rivatuner and that was avoided. Otherwise a reset rather than powerdown resulted in the fan staying at 0% or 60% instead of the default 40% [powerdown rectified it]. I have a thermal catch scheduled with rivatuner at 85c to downclock to 200cpu/400shader/80mem@0.95v to avoid unforseen overheats, so overheat wasnt an issue.

Now, after that was 'dealt with' while the fan would briefly hit this reversed fan speed idiocy - I later noticed the after the GPU fan issue cropped up the Hard Disk briefly would shut off then power on while active and not idle as it it were being forced into a momentary low power mode. A few seconds later sound would lock-loop, the game that was being played would lock up and the Machine Check error came up once more. If it [the comp] survived the 'HD powerdown' briefly, the GPU would act as if unpowered after instead and then the HD powerdown/up occured again soon after with the same audio lockloop then restart instead due to a blank screen [cant see the BSoD in this case]. Occasionally this would even result in the usb devices to not be detected either unless they were unplugged/plugged back in.

I was unsure if it was due to the motherboard issuing an errounous shutdown command to the Hard disk or other devices. So to narrow it down I'm temporarily using the 12v/3.3v@1.8A switching supply from an external USB drive enclosure to power the cooling fans and Hard Drive. This has remedied the 'hard disk' powerdown issue during use and the disks were fine with Western Digitals DataSafe(?) drive diagnostics. However, the GPU issue still occured when under full load but now that the Drives were powered externally to circumvent the powerdowns, the GPU would only result in a black screen over time followed by a reboot/shutdown.

To wrap up this long story - I'm currently at stock clocks with some components far under-clocked. I can play games, though lagged, okay to an extent without shutdowns for now and reduced the GPU clocks by half to cut draw from roughly 74-79A to around 30-40A [as read by Rivatuner] and reduced the GPU voltage from 1.13v to 1.00v. The shutdowns/power losses mostly happened during full load over time without synthetic testing [Furmark, Orthos, etc all at once] but issues can be further hastened by running them while gaming.

My warranty on my PSU was expired so opened that up - had a fair buildup of dust clods in there. Cleaned that out and noticed under the wire-bunch that a couple capacitors have not so flat heads [very minimally raised, hard to notice from a top down view] and think this may be the contributing factor however the system runs just fine when not fully loaded for longer than a few mins. I would take it that even the slightest raising of the vented caps would cause a large drop in PSU stability under load despite normal voltages [increased ripple perhaps]?

Temps were perfectly normal under full load [Mixed synthetics] before everything happened. GPU maxed at around 74c, CPU maxed around 62c, Ram still checks out in Memtest+ without issue, and Software Voltage readouts show normal voltages within their usual limitations even till just before the 'shutdowns'. Those are my overclocked temps - temps are about 10c+ lower on stock clocks/underclocked.

Alas if it is the PSU for sure, I'm stuck with it as we're living paycheck to paycheck to stay off the street for now till we get on our feet for a better living. I'm sure I probably answered my own question with the symptoms and the slight difference in the capacitors. Not sure how much of an effect the slightest and most [seemingly] insignificant bulging can have.

Though, I would love any suggestions and recommendations [or otherwise] for a replacement PSU and/or others. Kinda ripping my hair out figuring it out. Got my finger on the PSU but not 100% sure despite the glaring symptoms since narrowing down hardware faults can be a nightmare at times.
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Last edited by Chozo4; 9th August, 2011 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Typo's x.x
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10th August, 2011, 08:13 AM
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From experience, any bulging in the capacitors, it's on its way out, if not gone.

I wouldn't run it until you have that fixed.

To fix it you have 3 options;
1. Cheapest - If you soldering skills and equipment is good enough, replace the caps.
Though as it is a device plugged into the mains power, you may not legally be able to do that - don't know the local laws surrounding that.
2. Next Cheapest - replace PSU with one that will take the load. Though if it was the dodgy power that did this it will happen again.
3. Expensive - replace PSU with new one, and get a power conditioner - in fact get one that all of your electronics can share, you may get this issue in other equipment.

Personal opinion - replace the caps if you can, there may be more than you think though, then test the system. If it works fine, look around for a second hand UPS that is also a power conditioner, one that is almost or is dead, replace the battery if you have to with the minimum/smallest you can. In NZ, an almost dead UPS goes for ~$10 plus ~$20 for a good second hand battery, and caps are $0.05-$5 each.

The reason for replacing the caps, is if other components are gone, you are out of pocket the least.

If the power is that bad, get the UPS first for any electrical equipment, it will cost you much less in the long term.
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Last edited by noob; 10th August, 2011 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 10th August, 2011, 08:21 AM
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Hello
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Old 25th August, 2011, 09:41 PM
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Any improvement with your difficult beast, Chozo4?
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Old 6th September, 2011, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloasters View Post
Any improvement with your difficult beast, Chozo4?
Not at all, yet...

We're still short going from paycheck to paycheck so - can only really do browsing and comparison shopping at best right now as we need to afford a replacement scooter for transportation first. I'd found a suitable prices on APC RS's [with line regulation, trim/boost, etc] on ebay without a battery. Also found batteries for cheap at newegg for around $17.99 each and don't need a large one as Noob had pointed out. Bad enough I had to immediately place an order for a replacement hard drive [40gb IDE this time - spent $9] to replace the one I fried through a VERY AMATURE mistake. Somehow when tracking down a loose molex [had to use a cheap splitter with the external supply] while it was powered on - I connected the 12v rail to the 3.3v pin by accidentally flipping the molex. While you cannot put it in backwards, you can apparently still touch two pins together in the process of finding out. I know better to turn off the power first but me being in a rush and needing the power on to track a loose molex wire caused me to generally make a disaster of things. So - that's another $40-$50 investment down the line for a replacement PCB for that hard disk as I don't have the storage to make regular backups.

However, for power supplies I'm still at a standstill on what to really get. I see recommendations on [x] brand and [y] brand amongst others. I don't really find many decent 'sure fire' suggestions on specific models or specific brands as I'm looking for the highest 80+ rating I can find with decent craftsmanship. yet - many brands are just wolves in sheeps clothing and rebranding low-quality supplies [low cap quality for example or doesn't live up to stated supply] according to other sources.

So, for now - still running all the system fans and 2 hard disks off my tiny external USB Disk Enclosures internal supply to relieve stress along the +12v rails. Though, even then that tiny 1.8A supply is surely struggling by now. Then further reduced GFX clocks down so amperage during load [according to Rivatuner] was reduced from peak 78~84A to around peak 39~42A. Rest of my system clocks are running at full like I normally did.

Everything since then is running "OK", despite the rare graphic artifact [large red and stretched triangle from a random texture briefly for instance] every 15-20mins. Seems that's when the power is briefly dipping down just enough to cause the graphics card to struggle and artifact at lower draw but not result in a black screen+freeze+reboot with half of the USB ports no longer detecting the connected devices without replugging or a cold boot.

.. overall - rather 'stuck' with it for the time being. I do not trust my soldering skills well; expecially with a high power device nor do I have any solder wick or thin solder wire to work with. So, that leaves replacing the caps as an impossible solution for the time being until I gain more confidence to do so [after replacement at the least].

Again, thanks for the replies!

.. also, what's with these forum bots that I've been seeing everywhere [stylus for instance?]. They're becoming like a plague lately on almost every board! Almost seems as it they're simply field testing for post and captcha recognition.
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Last edited by Chozo4; 6th September, 2011 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 6th September, 2011, 10:23 AM
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Bad news about the HDD.

As for PSU brand. There are several great ones, some good ones, and the rest to stay away from.

My personal experience is good-great with the following brands, you just need a wattage high enough for your equipment;

PC power & Cooling
Silverstone
Cooler Master
Thermaltake
Zippy
Seasonic

No particular order, just what I remembered them in. Go over to JonnyGURU.com - Kingwin Stryker Fanless 500W Review and have a look at the brands he has tested. Basically anything that didn't fail miserably will be more than fine in a standard system.

Now to test your power outlet. If your power is dodgy enough you should probably just go to your local library to use the internet the following test will work:
1. Wait till several people are at the motel using their rooms for dinner/etc
2. Turn on hair dryer
3. Plug in the kettle/jug/whatever you call it and start to boil cold water
4. Turn on vacuum cleaner

If you have them, turn on another 1 or 2 appliances that use motors, and elements like the oven, even household lights, and are on the same line as the other appliances (so the oven typically can't be used).

If you hear a decrease in volume/output/input from either the hair dryer or vacuum cleaner or decrease in light, you basically shouldn't run any electronic item without a UPS with line conditioner.

It probably means you are on a power regulator with more than one household in your area. Think of several households using the same internet at the same time.
EDIT - after a re-read, I see you are in a motel, You are most likely on a power regulator with other units. If it has enough peak capacity it should be fine.

The other is to write down the times that you have mini brown outs. If they happen at similar times every week day/weekend see what activity in your area is happening around that time. The cause is transformers that aren't up to spec, old failing transformers, or similar.

The other is to check your earth pin. You should have a constant low resistance line to ground. In many buildings, this is a line that goes to a copper pipe on the hot water cylinder, and may be corroded. Having replaced that with a large metal star stake (3m ~9 feet in length) before with a large improvement in quality. While the stake outside may not be viable, a proper connection to the pipe should improve things a bit.

Good luck with the parts.

As for the bots, there does seem to be an increase, not too much of a pain fortunately.
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Last edited by noob; 6th September, 2011 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 6th September, 2011, 02:08 PM
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Don't forget Corsair power supplies. The finest I have ever owned. The best way to describe the Corsairs is "powerful, in a relaxed sort of way." They just seem to do the job so well you forget they are there.
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Old 6th September, 2011, 02:55 PM
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Enermax, Antec and FSP are also good units from memory.
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Old 7th September, 2011, 05:52 AM
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OCZ makes a decent power supply, too. Second to PC power & cooling in my book.
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Old 8th September, 2011, 08:32 PM
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Hmm.. I've heard good stuff about OCZ, Corsair, and Seasonic. I was looking looking into "Super Flower" [Golden King and Golden Silent-series namely] - which seems according to johnny guru on par or better than seasonic but cannot be gotten here in the states [sadly - could try import?]. OCZ and Corsair I'm using both of those RAM brands right now as well so could no doubt find good stuff from them then too. Just haven't heard much at all about them putting out PSU's.

Great suggestions all - thank you!

Also, noob - far as power is concerned, it sounds about the same as you describe. Our APT is on but a single 30A breaker [we kept popping it when we had both the microwave and A/C on]. Everytime the fridge kicks on, the A/C, microwave, or even our little portable one burner stove we have the lights dim for a split moment but is very noticable. We also get flickering brownouts during any kind of storms or high winds. Otherwise we don't get any noticable power droops aside from that.

As for the earthing pin - I cannot test that as we don't have any means of doing so. Though, would think that we don't have one considering our surge-arrest claims a wiring fault and the devices attached [desktop, laptop, etc] give a pulsing 'shock' from anything metal on it. Even the headphone plug using a male-male adaptor for extension when raised a certain height will give a low pulsing shock. Gives a bit of an eye opener as to how bad the power is here... and how dangerous it is to run anything but would rather keep my sanity than not use anything.

Need to keep this running as it is due to needing it for our call station. We have no phones in these apt's, so need to use Skype using the provided wireless for inbound and outbound calling. ~_~
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Last edited by Chozo4; 8th September, 2011 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 9th September, 2011, 05:53 AM
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Certain items don't run without the earth being connected, some electronics can detect this and wont work.

I would say that you aren't earthed in the conventional or 'proper' sense. You probably have a pseudo earth via a power regulator. The surge-arrest can detect no proper earth. I don't know how effective it is going to be without a decent ground, but I would still run everything of yours you can through it. The reason for the UPS is that it has a battery which can be used as a volt/current sink in emergencies. Not good for the battery, but less expensive than a new electronic device.

The pulsing could be caused by high voltage unshielded lines nearby, say unshielded 3 phase power running through your roof for the rest of the motel.

I don't know about laws where you are, but a set up that bad would be shut down if some one reported it here.
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2 x SanDisk Extreme 120GB RAID 0
Western Digital Green 3TB
Asus Xonar Essence STX
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Old 8th October, 2011, 07:28 PM
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Sorry to read that you're in a difficult situation. From what I read about the "power" available atm, I suggest not running anything of real value. Sounds like some idjet/miser used aluminum wiring. Bad news, sorry.
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Old 17th December, 2011, 03:42 AM
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Well, another update:

My computer is now dead in the water for now so to speak. Was installing a few programs when all of a sudden the whole thing just shut off like the switch was flipped in the back. It will now no longer turn on at all no matter what it done. There was no sound, no smell, or anything of the sort to point it out being the supply. Opened up the supply itself, the same things noticed before but nothing has visually changed. Something in the supply just plan gave up that I cannot tell from a cursory visual inspection.

I tried the supply on a semi-dead mainboard [EPoX 9NDA3-J - bad agp slot but has an onboard numeric debug display] and even on that the supply won't function. So went into the storage, picked out my old power supply I'd originally used on the EPoX [Raidmax RX-380K] that my rosewill replaced. It works fine on the EPoX which booted through its' paces according to the debug display. I'd then tried it on the ASRock which resulted in that the fans would powerup on both the board and vid card but that's all I would get. No debug beeps, the corsair ram sticks won't powerup, the CPU [tried both my Opty170 and Athlon 4000+] and Northbridge won't heatup. So, I'm assuming the supply is just far too weak to power the ASROCK with its' 11A on the +12v rail. Yet, oddly, back in the days it powered my overclocked athlon and geforce 6800Ultra without issue. I'm just REALLY hoping that whatever went in the Rosewill didn't take out my ASRock with it.... *sigh*

Least, tis the holidays and might have gotten a bit of a bonus from extra sales in the last few weeks which we'll be seeing in check form in the next couple weeks. With luck, can order a replacement powersupply by then. Just going to be a rather blah holiday with little to do. =_=;

Anywho, I hope you all have a very happy holidays and best wishes.
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Last edited by Chozo4; 17th December, 2011 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 17th December, 2011, 07:57 PM
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Merry Christmas!

Hope you can get it running again.
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Old 26th December, 2011, 01:48 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chozo4 View Post
I'm just REALLY hoping that whatever went in the Rosewill didn't take out my ASRock with it.... *sigh*
Well, borrowed from a friend who happened to have a spare HP desktop sitting around and not being used. Was intially intending to use it as a backup but the HP board doesn't support IDE drives [SATA-Only], cannot fit my graphics card, and the drive needed a reformat that was in it [corrupt OS].

Anywho, decided to take out the supply and give it a whirl, to see if it can power my mainboard. I was worried that the mainboard has gone dead and well... it thankfully wasn't afterall. So that's a giant relief - one issue down. Just need to get an actual replacement PSU rather than a temp one for the sake of emergency life-support.

Been looking at NewEgg and though the rosewill didn't exactly perform over the years but.. gotta get what I can for now. There aren't too many choices available with any decent wattage/amperage for cheap. Was looking at this one... [yes... another Rosewill... *sigh*] >.>

Newegg.com - Rosewill Green Series RG700-S12 700W Continuous @40°C,80 PLUS Certified,Single 12V Rail,ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V v2.91,SLI Ready,CrossFire Ready,Active PFC"Compatible with Core i7, i5" Power Supply

Just that I'm strictly going for 80PLUS Bronze or higher at a budget price right now that would supply enough amperage for my needs. Will probably shoot me in the foot though but won't be able to afford for a bit anyway so... more time to make decisions.
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Old 26th December, 2011, 03:12 AM
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As far as I can see, this PSU would be a better option:
Newegg.com - CORSAIR Builder Series CX600 V2 600W ATX12V v2.3 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply

Has more amps on each rail, except for +12v, is 40A enough?

Has a 5 year warranty, instead of the 2 years on the Rosewill one.
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Last edited by danrok; 26th December, 2011 at 03:13 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 26th December, 2011, 05:13 AM
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You will not go wrong with anything Corsair. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my Corsair power supplies are easily the best I have ever owned, and the long warranty is a plus. I believe one of my Corsairs actually has a 7-year warranty.
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Last edited by ThunderRd; 26th December, 2011 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 26th December, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrok View Post
As far as I can see, this PSU would be a better option:
Newegg.com - CORSAIR Builder Series CX600 V2 600W ATX12V v2.3 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply

Has more amps on each rail, except for +12v, is 40A enough?

Has a 5 year warranty, instead of the 2 years on the Rosewill one.
Hmm... my Rosewill was actually a 41A and just about held up as my GFX card pulled an easy 38-40A when overclocked according to rivatuner with the updated 'VT1165.dll' plugin for this series of cards. Would feel rather uneasy getting something with less amperage really. =\

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderRd View Post
You will not go wrong with anything Corsair. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my Corsair power supplies are easily the best I have ever owned, and the long warranty is a plus. I believe one of my Corsairs actually has a 7-year warranty.
Oh! of course, I definately took that to mind and will get something more reliable such as that when the time [and budget!] comes and then pass off the rosewill as a backup for a testbench or some other use. Just right now budget is a large issue and currently running off a 20A/450W(?) Hewlett-Packard Stock PSU as life support from a friends spare PC. Running the rig underclocked to ease the strain on it - also rather annoyed I had to bridge 2 molex's for a second PCI-E power connector with it which shows the PSU is definately made for low-end parts. Would love to get off it as quick as possible but can't really find a corsair [or any reputable brand for that matter] that's 80PLUS-Bronze(*) or better within a decent price range and Amperage. >.<

*=Reason I'm pushing for the Efficiency spec is due to the fact that with the cruddy power from this apartment popping our 30A breaker [and me bugging the owners at the office to flip it back] whenever we use the A/C, Desktop, and either the toaster or microwave together. I'd rather keep the power waste to a minimum from the desktop for the sake of our whole [tiny] apartment so save both the sanity of us and the owners.
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Last edited by Chozo4; 26th December, 2011 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Added in Thunder's Quote.
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Old 5th January, 2012, 12:11 PM
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40A Corsair and 40A Roswell aren't the same.

Most PSU's state their ratings at ~20-25C, and many brands will be 40-60% of stated rating at a real operating temp 60-70C. Corsair will still be over 100%, and it is $5 cheaper.

If you check some of the PSU tests around, you will see even high performance modern systems don't use more than about 350w when running. 40A on the 12V rail for the Corsair will be more than your rig will ever use, even if you maxed out all of the slots with HDD's, PCI card, etc. even on boot.

In fact this PSU would handle your rig with ease: Newegg.com - CORSAIR Builder Series CX430 V2 (CMPSU-430CXV2) 430W ATX12V v2.3 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply

Then use the difference to get that UPS.

EDIT:
The other advantage of a UPS with a line conditioner - on start up of appliances connected to it, it doesn't transmit the initial current surge to the mains line - may save some sanity.
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Last edited by noob; 5th January, 2012 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 5th January, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Line conditioning sounds like just the ticket with the questionable power coming from the wall.
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