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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 04:15 PM
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It costs double in the UK?

You could build three whole computers with current parts for the price of one copy of Vista Ultimate in GB.

Would have thought the teaparty would have settled any score the yanks still had with the motherland.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 04:48 PM
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While I won't quibble with Gizmo over his description of modern industal man... I feel it inaccurate to ascribe these qualities to what we "refer" to as "Primitive man", who was no such thing! The new term of "Primal man", seems much better suite to the reality.

Basic tribal life was very different from what we have turned it into. Any good description of tribal co-operation on a day to day basis make one thing very clear. They had different hearts. The had a different sense of self, one that included the tribe.

Self and tribe did not have conflicting aims in terms of most things. They competed for status and mates, they Co-operated in all else. They prospered or perished as a tribe.

What we see as human nature, is not writ in stone. We have been both more and less than we are today.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Self and tribe did not have conflicting aims in terms of most things. They competed for status and mates, they Co-operated in all else. They prospered or perished as a tribe.
I submit that they co-operated as a tribe because the individuals recognized that in their co-operation lay mutual benefit that enabled them to achieve things otherwise impractical to do. They were, however, still motivated by the primal needs of survival, and in any case, their excesses were still limited by nature itself.

It's what we refer to today as 'enlightened self-interest'.

Last edited by Gizmo; 25th September, 2007 at 05:07 PM.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 08:31 PM
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I submit that they simply loved each other. I think we make to many excuses for what we have become. I submit that it is nearly impossible for us to really peer into and understand a tribal mind. A mind that knows EVERYTHING the tribe knows. A mind that thinks as a tribe.

What ever the case may be, this much is certain, we have lost this connection, we are no longer surrounded from dawn to dawn with our famiures, we walk alone amoung strangers and we must stand and fall alone... who dares to wonder why so many fall as we walk by?

No Gizmo, they didn't calulate as we would, they love one another sacrfically. A man or woman was measured by what they would do, what unimagine pain they would suffer to give strenth and courage to the young and to protect the tribe.

In one tribe, each year the eldest wonman of the tribe would strap a bee hive to her naked chest then arouse the bees to their fullest fury... to show the young what it is to bear pain? NO, they will learn that on there own. It was to show the young the love the elders bore them, it was to unite the tribe....to remove doubts that hinder the tribe mind. You see the whole tribe suffers with their grandmother...They know every scare on her body! They know everything one human can know about another, they feel her pain, they acept the burden of her love.

BTW, they still do this every year,,,,

I think they simply loved each other.
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 25th September, 2007 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 25th September, 2007, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
No Gizmo, they didn't calulate as we would, they love one another sacrfically. A man or woman was measured by what they would do, what unimagine pain they would suffer to give strenth and courage to the young and to protect the tribe.
I think you're too much of a romantic. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, you understand.....

Cultures develop certain values over time. Generally speaking, those values exist for the purpose of enhancing the survival of our progeny. There are a great many ways of getting to that final goal, some better than others, but at their basest level, that's what they are.

Just because you don't make that calculation consciously, doesn't mean that calculation isn't being made.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán View Post
As long as you don't live in the UK that is...
So you guys get as screwed as us.
Nice to know we aren't alone.

1 advantage of the UK is: at least you get things we don't, or before us.

I have the logitech G15 gaming. I have to change the country to somewhere else to get my drivers, as supposidly it isn't sold here.

Fortunately we have parallel importers. Where we used to be a country that got everything, high uptake of new tech, coupled with small population, making it a good test area. Now we are seen as not worth the effort.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
I think you're too much of a romantic. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, you understand.....

Cultures develop certain values over time. Generally speaking, those values exist for the purpose of enhancing the survival of our progeny. There are a great many ways of getting to that final goal, some better than others, but at their basest level, that's what they are.

Just because you don't make that calculation consciously, doesn't mean that calculation isn't being made.
Just because a calculation can be made doesn't mean one needs to make it, you have this all backwards, all modern,":O}

We didn't calculate our way into existence! We calculated to understand our existence.... then, alas, to modify our existence...

Nature DOES not calculate we are a product of nature, not of calculation, we forfill ourselves not by calculatied action, but by the strenth of what lies in our hearts.

This is not a romantic view of tribalism but a scientifically observed one, I'm not altogether unread in this field.

But yes, I am a hopeless romantic! Which means I cling like an old grandmother to this stinging truth, now, only love can save us. Your calcultions are as so much dust in the wind, they can not properly govern our intentions towad one another, so they can not save us.

But here's an image that has that power, the power to save us, the power to properly govern our intentions toward one another, if we would be saved.

An 80 year old woman with a hive of bees strapped to her chest, looking steely eyed into a future her tribe must face, as they splinter into individualises

though we go forward from here alone, she stands there at the dawn of human time in her pain to remind us, this is where we come from, this is who we are. Fearless in the face of the worst pain we can dig up in the forest.

We have forgotten this primal truth in the midsts of calulations....no, calulations cannot save us... Best you dig up a little romance..":O}
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 26th September, 2007 at 05:07 PM.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 25th September, 2007, 11:50 PM
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As ever seems the case, we are not in disagreement on the destination, only the mechanism by which we get there.

I will grant that you are right in this regard: We have rules that came into being for a reason. Unfortunately, we have forgotten what those reasons were because we have done a very poor job of educating our children. As a consequence, our grandchildren will have to RELEARN lessons that our ancestors could not have conceived of not knowing.

A woman standing with a beehive on her chest illustrates why things are in a way that the younger generation can easily understand. A book full of language that is purposely convoluted does not.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 26th September, 2007, 05:23 PM
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This is the power of Image. One needs no education, no letters, no numbers. Christ was/is such an image, an image that can change this world. The world is always in motion, one need not push to get her started. The trick is to plant the image at the right moment in time, then let the world spin it into maturation...

There was a day in the desert when new words were spoken. they didn't just blow away as my words drift toward dissolution.

Someone anchored them with his life's blood. Someone put their money where their mouth was and the seed is still seeking root in human conscienceness.

Someone created a image of their life and layed down their life to say that the image rules over life. Guards and protects life....

A scholar can not say this and make sense. Only an image maker can say," let the little children come unto me, for of such as they, the kingdom of heaven is made."

A scholar can not trust children with books. But for the image maker children are his
intended audience. They will take the image within themselves and give it light and life. Though them the image is brought again to life and knows duration in a world of change.
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
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