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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 17th March, 2004, 10:10 PM
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On die Temp mod for 8RDA-in Russian

Found this http://faq.ixbt.com/_mobo/epox8rda.shtml
Under Q17 seems to be a mod for monitoring the on-die temp probe- Anyone translate the text?
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Old 18th March, 2004, 12:04 AM
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I can't read the text, but that picture tells me everything I need to know to make a good guess about what is happening.

Tell me, is U17 a ATTP1?
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Old 18th March, 2004, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
I
Tell me, is U17 a ATTP1?
Yes the chip in the second picture is an ATTP1.
Not sure if the linking involves lifting the legs on the chips or just connecting wires betwen them, plus it is not totally clear on the winbond sensor chip which legs are involved.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 11:56 AM
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http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish

Maybe that will help.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtBudde
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Old 18th March, 2004, 04:39 PM
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The author of the mod did not lift the pins, but did note that the temp readings were inaccurate. This is not surprising, because he is putting two sampling loads on the chip's current source, and there is probably a pull-up resistor attached to the input pin on the Winbond chip, further skewing measurements.

I believe he is also recommending using a shielded wire, because the pins connected in green are ground pins. In the case of my NF7-S, I didn't do this, and it doesn't seem to be causing any problems. However, it can't hurt. Thing is, you only want to connect that grounding wire at one end, or you create a ground loop, because the two chips are already connected to ground through the mobo.

The mod is essentially the same as what I did on my NF7-S, except that instead of using channel 3 (pin 102) of the Winbond chip, he is using channel 1 (pin 104).

You can verify that channel 1 is really not used by setting MBM5 to monitor channel 1 for temperature. If it is showing some ridiculously low or high temperature, then channel 1 is unused.

My own recommendation would be to perform the mod in the same manner as I did on the NF7-S. You just need to understand that you will be defeating your OTP circuit if you do.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 05:58 PM
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I thought that channel one was already used by the thermistor under the socket on the 8RDA+?

You should be able to get away without shielded cable, as the measuring technique works by the delta between the PD developed due to two different constant current sources. Grounding might well be more important though - as delta PD is pretty tiny!
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Old 18th March, 2004, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán
I thought that channel one was already used by the thermistor under the socket on the 8RDA+?
I do not know. The mod clearly involves pin 104, which is channel 1. That's why I suggested checking with MBM. How many temp sensors does the 8rda have, anyway? The socket thermistor, a mobo temp sensor, and....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán
You should be able to get away without shielded cable, as the measuring technique works by the delta between the PD developed due to two different constant current sources. Grounding might well be more important though - as delta PD is pretty tiny!
Come again? I missed something here. The CPU diode is tied to ground on one side and gets a current feed via a dropping resistor from a regulated voltage source derived internally in the chip. There aren't two different constant current sources, are there?

When shielding signals, you never, EVER ground the shield at both ends, nor do you use the shielding to carry signal (such as common or signal return for differential signals). Grounding the shield at both ends introduces the potential for a ground loop, and using the shield to carry signal current risks contaminating the signal with unwanted noise. Since the signal return is already established as being in the ground bus (because we don't have true differential signals), the best we can do is shield the wire and ground the shield at one end, and possibly add a very small (100pF) cap at the pin of the Winbond chip.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 08:17 PM
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Winbond1 is a ghost reading on the 8RDA (tends to read between 13 and 26.C but does not change much).
Silly question I expect but if you are not breaking any contacts why would this stop the OCP?
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Old 18th March, 2004, 08:20 PM
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The mod as described will not stop the OTP. However, the author of the mod stated that the temperature readings seemed to be inaccurate. I suspect the reason for that is because the pins weren't lifted. I had a very similar problem with my NF7-S until I lifted the pins.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 10:33 PM
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Gizmo- thanks for the help- might try it and see what happens.
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Old 18th March, 2004, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
There aren't two different constant current sources, are there?
Ideally there should be two different constant current sources. The thermal diode on the CPU is a bandgap sensor, and the maths behind these is much simpler when you have two sources. It also makes the output more accurate and more repeatable, even across different bandgap sensors.

Just checked out the Winbond stuff (specifically the W83627HF) - they're only using a single current reference. *sigh* Wonder if they'll catch up with their competition on this one?
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Old 19th March, 2004, 12:46 AM
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The ATTP1 is the same way; it only has a single current source. 'Course, all it's trying to do is a gross 'Pass or Fail' kind of measurement, not something precise, such as 'what is the current temp'.

Do you know of a tech document somewhere that explains this better? Neither of the documents I found on AMD or Intel's site really explain this.
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Old 19th March, 2004, 04:18 PM
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Did some more research on the whole 'two current source' thing.

You don't need two pins to do this. You can do it with one; in fact you just about HAVE to do it with one. You need a high current source and a low current source, and you measure the difference in voltage drop caused by the two different current sources. That allows you to figure out the diode ideality factor. With a single current source, you have to make a best guess. However, if you have something to compare against, you can get fairly close.

Does any mobo use a temp sensor that provides two current sources? I doubt it.
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Old 19th March, 2004, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vetinari
Gizmo- thanks for the help- might try it and see what happens.
Let us know how you get on.
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Old 11th August, 2006, 02:25 AM
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Hello,

(excuse me for bad english )

I want to do this mod on my EP-8RDA3I, but I see that values read from winbond chip (after this mod) are from CPU thermal diode, but they are shifted. How can I know exact temperature of my CPU?

Winbond chip specification refers to Pentium II thermal diode. Is there any difference between PII diode and AthlonXP Barton diode?

Thanks, Roman
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Old 11th August, 2006, 03:38 AM
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They all operate on the same principle. There will be some minor differences in the ideality factor which will affect the accuracy of the temperature reading, but as these will vary from CPU to CPU anyway, you're just going to have to live with them unless you want to go to the trouble of calibrating your diode.
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Old 11th August, 2006, 05:02 AM
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I'm talking about another thing...

As I understood, after this mod I can see results like 10C-15C instead of real 40C-50C (or something like this).
How can I determine temp offset or how can I connect T-diode to winbond chip to avoid offset determination procedure?
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Old 11th August, 2006, 03:19 PM
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Ok, maybe I'm not properly understanding your question.

The Winbond chip is normally configured to read the in-socket thermistor. Thermistors are configured differently from thermal diodes (they use a different bias current and have a different temperature curve). In addition, most mobo BIOSes will apply a 'correction' calculation to the temp reading, which results in an offset. The Winbond chip provides for this by allowing for the programming of an offset register.

If you perform the mod but continue to rely on manufacturer provided tools to read the temp, then your temps will be offset as you say, and the readings could be off by quite a lot. For temps as read in the BIOS temp screens, there isn't anything I know of that you can do about this unless you wish to modify the BIOS, and I couldn't begin to tell you how to do that, since I've never done it.

However, you can use a tool like Motherboard Monitor to monitor temps in Windows. If you use MBM, you can configure the Winbond settings in MBM to read the thermal diode properly, and to change the offset that the BIOS programs into the offset register.

Does this answer your question?
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Old 11th August, 2006, 09:42 PM
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Not completely, but it brings understanding

I was looking for a trick to determine offset value which I need to set to "offset register", and I've found it in russian forum:
1. Set FSB and multiplier to minimal value (ex. 100x5 instead of 166x11)
2. Run software cooler program.
3. In this case processor temperature should be a little bit higher (by 2-3C) than temperature near CPU cooler, so I can set offset (using program to set Winbond's offsets) and make value of (temp of CPU diaode + offset) equal to system temp.

Thank you for help
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