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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 6th October, 2002, 08:02 AM
Ibn Ibn is offline
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Lightbulb Reducing CPU temp with WPCRSET :)_s

HI
I've been lurking around this forum for months, thought it was about time I contributed something while I'm waiting for the latest beta bios to magically appear... I'm a computer tech (MCSE, CNE, etc...), been building boxes since the mid 80's, I have truly come to love this forum, most interesting group of folks I've seen online since the old BBS days. Nice work, especially you Epox guys

{disclaimer}
I have fully tested the following in Windows XP, with an Epox 8k5a2+, and a palomino Athlon. It should work just as well in Win NT/2000, it will definitely NOT work in win 95/98/me. It may work with older Durons and Thunderbirds I had mixed results in my testing over the past couple years, it will either work perfect... or the system will get mighty unstable. It will work with just about any via chipset board from the last couple years (133/266/333)...
(Needless to say, if you have an old .25 micron CPU(thunderbird or older) make this change on its own, so you can easily figure out why your box is rebooting for no good reason
{disclaimer}


Okies, so what am I talking about you might ask? The HLT command.
As you may know Windows NT/2000/and XP always send a HaLT command to the CPU when your not doing much of anything.
And you may be aware that AMD Cpu's (since the K-6) have a built in response to the HLT command, instantly putting themselves to sleep, thereby saving power and cooling down.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of motherboards never tell the CPU that Windows wants it to go to sleep, so this is rather effective way to reduce the CPU temp is not utilized.
Why you may ask, well, none of the Motherboard companies bothers turning it on it the bios.
Which is so dang easy to do its positively silly, so lets turn it on...

Here's what we do, get your wpcrset and change the following;
Bus 0, Dev 0, Func 0
Register 92 Data E9
Register 95 Data 0E

{You may want to check these two registers with WPCREDIT first.
Just in case your config is wildly different from mine.}


In register #92 we want to change bit 7 to 1, the amazingly curiously named;
'Disc when STPGNT# Detect' should be enabled.

In the most mercurial of all registers #95, we want to change bit 1 to 1;
'HALT Command Detect' to Enabled

That's it, check your temps at the moment, reboot, and watch them drop over the next 30 minutes, hopefully...

My Idle temps right now as I type this are 94% F, my peak temps after playing UT2003 for a few hours straight are 117% F, they drop down to 94% within minutes of quitting the game...
This at 9.5 x 179 at 1.85 volts with an Alpha PAL 8045 and a low speed quiet fan

My friends I've done this for usually get a 10 to 15 degree drop, depends how bad your cooling is to start with...
I hope someone found all this typing useful
Good luck!
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Old 6th October, 2002, 08:32 AM
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how safe is this to do?
I used to use VCool i think it was and it used to conflict.
I just used WPCREDIT to change those 2 settings and my cpu has fallen from 40 to 28 and still dropping..

I would assume the only noticeable difference will be when i play a game it will greatly increase temp, but just as fast as i stop playin it will go down ?
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Old 6th October, 2002, 08:48 AM
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The temp should drop rather quickly, mine drops about 4 or 5 degrees a minute once I leave a game and start surfing, so within 5 minutes Im at my Idle temps. I would guess you'd get about the same, maybe 2% celsius a minute or so...

If it works for you after a few hours of playing games, it should work forever in my experience. The only real conflicts Ive ever noticed were SB live (the soundcard from hell) related on boards with a via 686 southbridges, without the PCI latency patch, then it caused random reboots rather quickly, 15 to 30 minutes of doing anything and it would reboot... with the newer boards and newer CPUs it has worked fine so far for me and my friends. So if you up to date hardware wise (circa 2002) I don't think it will screw anything up, and if you get weird reboots, change the registers back of course

Oh, while Im here, I noticed New Egg had some AMD 2400's for sale this afternoon, I ordered one
They went out of stock rather quick this morning I was bummed out, I checked back this afternoon and they had some more.

If your feeling lucky...

Newegg AMD 2400+

(I am not affiliated in anyway whatsoever with NewEgg, though I have purchased over $100k of equipment from them the past couple years, good vendor, just trying to be helpful, please kill this if I am in violation of anything. (all the vendors listed with the 2400's on pricewatch are rather slimy so far, thought I'd post a real vendor for folks...) )

Reseller Ratings
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Old 6th October, 2002, 09:04 AM
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Hell, while Im being product boy check this out from Corsair... The Corsair PC3200C2 I bought last month is already out of date, LOL

PC 3500 DDR

Memory bus speed: 2x217 MHz
CAS latency: 2.0 clock cycles
RAS precharge: 4 cycles
RAS-to-CAS delay: 4 cycles
RAS active to precharge: 8 cycles
Command rate: 1T (1 cycle)

http://www.corsairmemory.com/main/PR_cmx3500c2.html
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Old 6th October, 2002, 09:06 AM
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Re: Reducing CPU temp with WPCRSET :)_s

Quote:
Originally posted by Ibn
Why you may ask, well, none of the Motherboard companies bothers turning it on it the bios.
They don't enable it because the greater extremes of the thermal cycles puts undue stress on the silicon, shortening the life span of the CPU . . .
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Old 6th October, 2002, 10:07 AM
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LOL, thats utterly silly

If we were running portables, this command would be active in our Bios. But we exist in the desktop market so the MB makers don't much care about the HLT command. I should think thats the more likely reason... besides the CPU's are designed to last at least 10 years, and they are obsolete in 2... not to mention that I have obsolete CPUs that still work from years ago that have been getting Halted all the time, like my trusty duron 600 server in my 8k7a that runs at 950 at 1.75 volts and does so little its almost always a sleep, and still isnt dead

The HLT command has been around since the 8086 days.
With the advent of a large market for portables, the 386-s which added SMI, SMM, and RSM to the core and chipset (System Management Interrupt, System Management Mode, and the Resume command), the HLT instruction actually started being used.

The only real issue I can think of involves ACPI, and state 3 more specifically, you should use state one or cease using half multipliers. As AMD suggests in its (pre XP) Athlon docs.

Quote:
14 Processors with Half-Frequency Multipliers May Hang Upon Wake-up from Disconnect Products Affected: A4, A5, A6, A7, A9.

Normal Specified Operation: The processor should reconnect to the system bus upon wake-up after a disconnect while in the C2 and C3 ACPI low-power states.

Non-conformance: The processor uses a special circuit to wake up from a low-power state and reconnect to the system bus when the nominal operating frequency is generated with a half-frequency multiplier. This circuit is rarely observed to glitch when coming out of the C2 and C3 low-power states.

Potential Effect on System: The system will hang.

Suggested Workaround: Do not use the C2 or C3 ACPI states on processors that run at a nominal operating frequency generated with a half-frequency multiplier. This can be accomplished by having the BIOS not declare C2 or C3 support to the operating system in the Fixed ACPI Description Table (FADT).

Resolution Status: Fix planned for a future revision
HLT is being usurped by the much better PowerNow! and SpeedStep theories of gradually dropping clock speeds to control temps instead of disconnecting the CPU from the universe. But those products head straight into portables first as you well know. So we gots HLT to work with, though the new 2400+ and up Athlons are supposed to (from the docs) drop down to 1/8th power when given a HLT instead of zero... I'll know more about that when I get one delivered to me

I guess having a horrid power supply might cause issues (due to the +5 volt power draw being lessenned whenever nothing is going on with the CPU), but most AMD overclockers have enough brains to grab a good power unit ASAP. So I doubt thats an issue here. My brain is tired, gotta get some sleep. I hope that helped more then hurt? Have fun and a good night/day
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Old 6th October, 2002, 10:25 AM
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Im still awake enough to post a link

http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/25175.pdf

download that (1758k)
Its the newest (Oct 2002) AMD processor data sheet.
in chapter 4.1, Power Managment you read all about what these two bits are doing

things like this, and much, much, more

Quote:
Significant power savings of the processor only occur if the
processor is disconnected from the system bus by the
Northbridge while in the Halt or Stop Grant state. The
Northbridge can optionally initiate a bus disconnect upon the
receipt of a Halt or Stop Grant special cycle. The option of
disconnecting is controlled by an enable bit in the Northbridge.
If the Northbridge requires the processor to service a probe
after the system bus has been disconnected, it must first
initiate a system bus connect....
AMD Athlon system bus disconnects are initiated by the
Northbridge in response to the receipt of a Halt or Stop Grant.
Reconnect is initiated by the processor in response to an
interrupt for Halt or STPCLK# deassertion. Reconnect is
initiated by the Northbridge to probe the processor.
The Northbridge contains BIOS programmable registers to
enable the system bus disconnect in response to Halt and Stop
Grant special cycles. When the Northbridge receives the Halt or
Stop Grant special cycle from the processor and, if there are no
outstanding probes or data movements, the Northbridge
deasserts CONNECT a minimum of eight SYSCLK periods after
the last command sent to the processor. The processor detects
the deassertion of CONNECT on a rising edge of SYSCLK and
deasserts PROCRDY to the Northbridge. In return, the
Northbridge asserts CLKFWDRST in anticipation of
reestablishing a connection at some later point.

Note: The Northbridge must disconnect the processor from the
AMD Athlon system bus before issuing the Stop Grant
special cycle to the PCI bus or passing the Stop Grant special
cycle to the Southbridge for systems that connect to the
Southbridge with HyperTransport™ technology.
This note applies to current chipset implementation—
alternate chipset implementations that do not require this
are possible.


Note: In response to Halt special cycles, the Northbridge passes the
Halt special cycle to the PCI bus or Southbridge
immediately.


The processor can receive an interrupt after it sends a Halt
special cycle, or STPCLK# deassertion after it sends a Stop
Grant special cycle to the Northbridge but before the
disconnect actually occurs. In this case, the processor sends the
Connect special cycle to the Northbridge, rather than
continuing with the disconnect sequence. In response to the
Connect special cycle, the Northbridge cancels the disconnect
request.
The system is required to assert the CONNECT signal before
returning the C-bit for the connect special cycle (assuming
CONNECT has been deasserted).
For more information, see the AMD Athlon™ System Bus
Specification, order# 21902 for the definition of the C-bit and
the Connect special cycle.
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Old 6th October, 2002, 12:45 PM
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IBN its not silly, Dimmreaper knows his stuff, I can vouch for that, I also know, independantly of anyone here that a larger temp change in a shorter time will eventually fatigue any material, and it will ultimately fail. This goes for the silicon on a CPU as well as the turbine blades in a gas turbine engine
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Old 6th October, 2002, 08:12 PM
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Aye, true of power supply components sure enough, and a lot of macro scale structures. But we're talking about temp swings of 20 to 30 degrees F, thats not much. Any CPU in Peltier config is going through that just to get back to room temp when you power down, and a CPU running at -40C in a gas cooling setup in going through serveral times that everyday. It's very similar to the temp swings of the 'GPU' on your video card as you switch between Windows and playing a 3d game. CPU's in laptops go through this sort of thing all day long, and they certanly dont fall over dead all that often. You honestly think the CPU guys are going to spend a lot of effort designing ways to reduce the life expectency of their highest profit margin products? This ain't the car industry, LOL

I have read temperature cycling reports of various semiconductors, the testing is usually done between -50 and +150 Celsius (10 times the temps swings on the Athlons) to really fatigue the chips, even after 1000s of such cycles failure rates were typically less then 1%

However, if you honestly think your CPU will fall over and die if you turn on two registers, then dont do it, and while your at it make sure you CPU volts never go over 1.9 and memory never tops 2.8, then your chip will have a nice long graceful fall into obsolesence without any human intevention

I'm sure dimmreaper may know his stuff, but I doubt his specialty includes the thermal enviroment of quartz crystals operating under electrical loads, though its not mine either I must say, but it may well have been for a few of the engineers who designed these capabilities into the CPU's...

Have fun!
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Old 6th October, 2002, 08:44 PM
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it WILL shorten the life, it wont make it fail overnight but it will shorten the life. thats all we are saying, and it is the probable reason it is not enabled from the start is because the motherboard manufacturers are covering their backs

Anyway, Idle temps are totally irrelevant, and load arent that important either.... Again, its just the life of the chip that suffers at high temps. Im pretty sure any extension in CPU life from the lower idle temp will be negated by the extra cycling of temps
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Old 6th October, 2002, 09:07 PM
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I think rather than worry about the life of the CPU it may be that some customers will be unduely alarmed by larger temperature variation between idle and load.

Dimm may well have a point though, im certainly less knolegable than he is with regard to this.

Such a tweak is no use to myself as I run folding@home, as should you Ibn !!
Stop waisting those spare cycles and make some use of them
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Old 6th October, 2002, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holst
.Such a tweak is no use to myself as I run folding@home, as should you Ibn !!
Stop waisting those spare cycles and make some use of them
My thought exactly! I can't remember the last time my CPU was at idle!
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Old 7th October, 2002, 12:54 AM
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LOL, okay, folding is a good point, I'll give you that
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Old 7th October, 2002, 04:22 AM
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I've been using HALT since I bought my 2 AMD systems... Not only it will lower temperatures, but it will save you a lot in energy consumption...

A friend of mine tested power consumption, using the HALT options, on a Duron @ 1000MHz (only) and the difference with HALT was approximately 20W (Watts).

I suppose with higher nominal power consumptions, our Athlons @ 1600MHz (for example) should reduce some 30W or more maybe...

As were I live they are charging a lot for energy (because of a lot of incompetency on the producers -- they didn't "upgade" the energy system so last year Brazil was pretty near to a blackout due to lack of enough power to cover the consumption), I'm gonna use this little "trick".

PS: Maybe Epox Tech can tell us why it's not in any manufacturers BIOS ? Is it because it will damage your CPUs or is it just for compatibility ? (Older processors and problematic SB Live cards?)

And thanks for the technical info ibn...
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Old 7th October, 2002, 09:34 PM
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Your more then welcome nfrenay

I'd assume its about compatability, its way easier to tune a bios on a portable then a desktop. I'd assume they wouldn't want the tech support issues associated with hardware conflicts from the desktop folks... Maybe they'll clue us in...

Good luck with your elections in Brazil, go Silva
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Old 8th October, 2002, 02:24 AM
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Damn... That Lula (da Silva) is crappy...

Lula is the "poor people" candidate... This guy can't even speak correctly... He worked at Volkswagen, in the machinery... And this is what people are voting for... Damn this is sooooo sad...

We will have 2nd turn now... Let's hope things will change...

And sorry if I broke any rules with the Off-topic .
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Old 8th October, 2002, 05:14 AM
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i use the cooling register for my 3a (web/email server) so i don't think it would harm the chip in any way.

afa my 3a+ is conserned, i only turn off the cooling register when i'm converting dvd to divx as Vidomi often crashes especially if i'm overclocking.
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Old 8th October, 2002, 05:54 AM
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R0l0e: what's "vidomi" ? Is it a converter ?? Sorry for the OT...
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Old 8th October, 2002, 07:10 AM
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From the reports I read this guy was/is a communist, represents the 'workers party', their symbol is a red star, and they are ranting against the 'free-market'??? oh my, you'd think they'd at least pick something a little less transparent...
Seems like nobody gets a decent candidate to pick from these days in elections.

Good luck yet again
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Old 8th October, 2002, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by nfrenay
R0l0e: what's "vidomi" ? Is it a converter ?? Sorry for the OT...
the best way for me to explain it is to point you to the url... ready?

http://www.vidomi.com :clown:

you have to have divx 4.xx installed and from what i've heard, 4.11 would be the one you want.
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