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Old 6th July, 2003, 06:49 PM
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200w good enough for p4 2.4C & Radeon 9800pro?

haha Im sure that title got some attention
"OMFG What a n00b!"

Its not what you think, I have a shuttle XPC (Go springdale!) with a p4 2.4C and a gf4 ti4200 right now. It has a 200w enhance psu. Heres a picture of the specs.

http://www.bigredwa.com/DSCF0070.JPG

anyway... I Just got my first credit card and im going to buy somthing and make the payments on it to build my credit further. A new videocard looks rather attractive I was just wondering if my lowly little XPC can handle it, lol.

With my current hardware the voltage rails are 100% stable, I dont have it overclocked, well I did but having a 50c + Load makes me paranoid On the other hand the psu on this thing runs rather warm. I just dont want it to explode and kill everything when I add a 9800pro in it.

For complete specs of me computer and such go here:
Shuttle XPC SB61G2

Edit: I also emailed shuttle about the psu heat the other day and they said it was normal
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Old 6th July, 2003, 07:12 PM
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Better safe than sorry, IMHO. Finding a more powerful Flex-ATX(?) form factor PS might be difficult. I hope not!
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Old 6th July, 2003, 11:20 PM
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Here's the PSU from my Shuttle system - a KM266 based (IE cost sensitive athlon solution) box. Note how radically different the voltage rails are on the PSU, compared to your PSU. The CPU is powered from the 12V line.

You should work out the power consumption on your system and see how much free power you have.
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200w good enough for p4 2.4C & Radeon 9800pro?-psu.gif  
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Old 7th July, 2003, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán
Here's the PSU from my Shuttle system - a KM266 based (IE cost sensitive athlon solution) box. Note how radically different the voltage rails are on the PSU, compared to your PSU. The CPU is powered from the 12V line.

You should work out the power consumption on your system and see how much free power you have.
How do I go abouts doing that?
Never had to before, Ive always had a huge overkill psu.
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Old 7th July, 2003, 12:23 PM
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Ahhh! We'll work on a worst case basis. You'll need to find out the power required by the various parts.

Things like hard disks can be looked up easily enough - there will be several sets of figures, a startup set, an idle set, and possible a read/write set as well. The startup set is the worst case when the drives spin up initially. The drives will actually tolerate a sag in the voltage rail at this point, due to the higher demands. Once the drives are spinning, their requirements are much lower!

The CPU is more difficult. Dependant on the voltage of the CPU, there'll be different current draws. Worst case numbers are... 49.8A@1.5V or 50.7A. That assumes a 533MHz FSB. If it's 800MHz FSB, then the number is 52.4A. You'd have to tell us what voltage the CPU is running at! These figures are taken from the P4 datasheet, if you're wondering.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't tell us the power required from the PSU! We'll make some assumptions here. Firstly, the CPU regulator is 80% efficient, secondly, the CPU regulator is fed from the 12V line.

So, if the CPU is an 800MHz FSB, running at 1.5V we get the following figures. 52.4A@1.5V which is the same as 78.6W (I*V!). We assume the regulator is 80% eff, so it'll draw 94.32W (78.6*1.2) from it's power supply line. That means a total draw of 7.86A (94.32/12) from the 12V line. Remember, this is worst case, which will probably never happen, unless you run something like CPUBurn!

The chipset is rather more difficult to calculate due to a whole bunch of different supplies with maximums. This is going to be a guesstimate! Running discrete graphics (as opposed to integrated graphics) the chipset core needs max 2.88A@1.5V, and the AGP supply required is max 0.37A@1.5V. VTT needs 1.6A@1.3?V, and DDR Supply needs 5.7A@2.6V together with System Memory of 1.2@1.5V.

Lets make this easier, and sum all the 1.5V lines together (some of them are supplied seperately!) That'll give us 4.45A@1.5V, 1.6A@1.3V and 5.7A@2.6V. Working out the wattage, gives us 6.675W for 1.5V, 2.08W@1.3V and 14.82W@2.6V. Add that lot up, and we get 23.575W worst case. Doing the same converter assumption of 80% eff, we get 28.29W. If that comes from the 12V line, it's 2.3575A, which would take the PSU over it's maximum, if the worst case ever happened! Assuming that it's coming from the 5V line, we'd see a load of 5.658A on the 5V line.

Quickly recapping, to ensure everyone's with us, we have a table like:

Code:
		Current Draw
Item		5V	12V
HDD1		?	?
HDD2		?	?
DVD		?	?
CPU		-	7.86
Chipset		5.7	-
GFX		?	?
-----------------------------
Totals		?	?
We just need to fill in the blanks now!
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Old 7th July, 2003, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Mr. Matt Buchanan,

Thank you for your interest in Shuttle Computer products.

Currently we do not offer any powersupply over 200W. We are working on the newer PSU and schedule to release later on in Q3. Please check back with us, or sign up our newsletter, we will send out press release when we launch the new PSU.

Thank you

Shuttle Computer
Thanks for not answering my question shuttle
I asked if their 200w psu could handle a 2.4ghz p4, 2 hard drives and a 9800pro.
I guess ill just buy the card and pray that the psu works long enough (Without exploding ) until their 300w psu comes out.

Btw: How do I find out which componets draw what power? Should it say on the lable on the drives?
Ive also scoured ATI's website and couldnt find out how much current the 9800pro draws. All ive found was "The Radeon 9800pro requires a connection to your internal power supply."
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Old 7th July, 2003, 07:01 PM
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Sapphire Radeon 128mb 9800pro and another stick of HyperX pc3500 512mb are on their way

/me Prays that it will work

My shiny new credit card has a 1k limit, I already put $508 on it...
Oh well, no intrest for a year
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Old 7th July, 2003, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuttle
Currently we do not offer any powersupply over 200W. We are working on the newer PSU and schedule to release later on in Q3.
Well, given that Shuttle don't produce any power supplies yet, we might be waiting a while. I suspect they're waiting for one of their suppliers to come up with the goods. I went looking but couldn't find anything over 200W in the FlexATX style.

In terms of the hard disks, you'll probably have to look it up on the manufacturer's websites. I don't know the models so I can't help here.

For the ATI card, you might just have to send ATI an email and see what they say!

Áedán
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Old 8th July, 2003, 05:41 PM
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robbie, why not have a look at: www.formfactors.org/searchcategories.asp for a list of Flex-ATX PS manufacturers? Just select "Flex-ATX" and "Power Supply." So far, a hefty 205W is the biggest capacity PS I've found.
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Old 8th July, 2003, 07:39 PM
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Using cloasters link I did find a psu that has a higher 12v rating than my current one which (If mine doesnt work) might just allow me to run the 9800pro.
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merch...tegory_Code=PS
Made by sparkle

If mine explodes or doesnt work ill give that one a try
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Old 9th July, 2003, 12:07 AM
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Could this be why it's a little difficult getting more power into the same space? Note the two heatsinks. The heatsink in the middle is the "high side" heatsink that handles the heat from the switching transistors. The other heatsink is the "low side" heatsink, which handles the heat from the rectifiers. I suspect that the low side heatsink may well be where most of the heat comes from (from previous experiences!) It also has one side to the PSU case, meaning that only one side gets cooled! I am a little surprised they didn't also use the case as part of the heatsink, in order to remove some more heat.

Sorry about picture quality - done with the webcam that's next to me. The webcam is a bit sensitive to IR, having been modified. That puts the colours (and the focus to a certain extent) out, as well as the contrast!
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Old 9th July, 2003, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán
Could this be why it's a little difficult getting more power into the same space? Note the two heatsinks. The heatsink in the middle is the "high side" heatsink that handles the heat from the switching transistors. The other heatsink is the "low side" heatsink, which handles the heat from the rectifiers. I suspect that the low side heatsink may well be where most of the heat comes from (from previous experiences!) It also has one side to the PSU case, meaning that only one side gets cooled! I am a little surprised they didn't also use the case as part of the heatsink, in order to remove some more heat.

Sorry about picture quality - done with the webcam that's next to me. The webcam is a bit sensitive to IR, having been modified. That puts the colours (and the focus to a certain extent) out, as well as the contrast!
They shouldnt have problems getting more power into a small space. There are already 400w 1U psu's for servers that put out almost no heat and have a high power output. They are the same size (maybe about 1/2 inch longer) as these flexatx psus.

I tried putting a 1U psu into the shuttle case but the screw holes are different and it didnt quite fit right
I dont know why didnt just use a 1U in here.
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Old 9th July, 2003, 01:27 AM
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I hope your new Sparkle will serve you well! Small form factor PS's will be a hot item, soon enough. Perhaps 200W is just fine for a P4 box with a high performance Vidcard? OTOH, an Athlon XP "bread box" may simply demand more power?
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Old 9th July, 2003, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRed
They shouldnt have problems getting more power into a small space. There are already 400w 1U psu's for servers that put out almost no heat and have a high power output.
Indeed! Perhaps I should choose my words a little more carefully. The server PSUs are likely to have transistors and rectifiers with much lower resistance. This adds substantially to the cost of the PSU - in fact I wouldn't be surprised if that doubled the component cost of the PSU. I guess there's no reason why we couldn't retrofit some of these low resistance parts to an existing PSU, apart from the fact it'd probably cost as much as the PSU itself. I looked at doing this for a standard ATX PSU, but using good components made it cheaper to buy a new PSU instead.

Incidently, I notice that on my SK41G, the PSU has a mounting bracket that provides an additional few centimetres in order to allow it to fit in the space. It'd require a lot of work to fit a 1U PSU in however, as most of the ones I've seen have the fan(s?) and power connector swapped over, which means the cable bundle exits from the top rather than the bottom.
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Old 9th July, 2003, 09:14 PM
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Muhaha it works! With stable voltage rails at that
I just played some bf1942 and some Rtcw:ET for the past 2 hours, its stable!
Man this card is SWEET. I jacked up the settings to bring it to its knees but it still gives me a constant 55fps or more
4x fsaa, 8x anistropic, trilineanear filtering, and multipass dynamic lighting all @ 1200x1024

Plus my 1gb of dual channel pc3500 probably helps a ton too

http://www.bigredwa.com/shuttle/DSCF0071.JPG
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Old 9th July, 2003, 09:53 PM
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Just a bit better than the SavageDDR on my SK41G then! Heheh. It's amazing what you can fit in a small box isn't it?
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Old 10th July, 2003, 05:25 PM
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The only think you need to be carefull of is heat.

I killed a radeon 9200 a week or two aggo running it in a SFF system with a 3.06 on a very hot day.
Even with the best ventilation I could manage the memory overheated and was permanently damaged.

Dont overclock your video card, and if you see an artifact.. even a slight one let the card cool down.
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Old 10th July, 2003, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holst
The only think you need to be carefull of is heat.

I killed a radeon 9200 a week or two aggo running it in a SFF system with a 3.06 on a very hot day.
Even with the best ventilation I could manage the memory overheated and was permanently damaged.

Dont overclock your video card, and if you see an artifact.. even a slight one let the card cool down.
Ive checked the temps on the card (laser temp probe thingy) and it doesnt get that warm . I have no intention of overclocking it either. Its fast enough as it is plus I only have a 200w psu
The psu is running at like 58c
Hopefully it will last until shuttle releases a newer one
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