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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 3rd January, 2005, 04:45 PM
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One day soon

Something tells me this forum will not be one of the least posted in for much longer.

iykwim...
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Old 3rd January, 2005, 05:23 PM
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you know something we dont?
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Old 3rd January, 2005, 05:56 PM
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LOL...no...but dual core cpu's are already sampling.....and omg you gotta see the die size. NDA's keep pictures off of the net currently, but it won't be long!
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Old 4th January, 2005, 06:30 PM
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Well, if you consider that current 90 nm tech makes an Athlon64 at about 60 square mm, then a simplistic dual core implementation (just put two A64s on one die) would double that area plus just a bit, say 125 square mm.

An intelligent implementation that shares some resources between the two cores instead of just duplicating everything could probably get that area down to about 100 square mm.

That's just guesswork, of course. I could be completely wrong.
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Old 4th January, 2005, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DimViesel
Something tells me this forum will not be one of the least posted in for much longer.

iykwim...
I just hate self-fulfilling prophecies! LOL
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Old 4th January, 2005, 08:20 PM
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AFAIK, they are planning more than just cache-sharing. There are 4 variants of the dualcore cpu's floating around right now, one of which is an opteron that anyone can go and buy today.

Intel, on the otherhand, are palnnign a dualcore which is just two dies side-by-side..allowing them to produce silicon that if one core of the pair is bad, they can split it off and sell the second as a single core chip.
I don't think AMD have the same plan, but i really think it will just be a variation of IBM's powerpc dual core.
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Old 5th January, 2005, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
I don't think AMD have the same plan, but i really think it will just be a variation of IBM's powerpc dual core.
In the short term, yes, this is fairly obvious. Unlike the PPC dual core, these chips will have an end goal on the small server/desktop market so obviously won't feature a 128MB L3 cache (which approaches the size of a beer mat using today's technology). The 2nd and 3rd generation cores, when multiprocessor systems have penetrated the market, will allow AMD/Intel to experiment with different architectures a bit more.

What I quite like about the proposed chips is that they will be available in packages that will fit into current motherboard designs. Looking at the schematics, the AMD Opteron dual core appears to have the more efficient design, with unified memory controller, fast bus between the two cores and a number of other northbridge functions moved on-chip. Intel seem to have been caught with their pants down on the dual core front - their first offering will be the Smithfield core (two Prescotts glued together with on-chip arbiter), but because they haven't had time to sort out a decent arbiter, hyperthreading will be disabled on these Prescott cores. They've thrown this together to replace the upcoming Tejas, which was to be another big fast single core.

However Intel have some nice gadgets up their sleeve - things like Vanderpool, which has already been demonstrated to run multiple OS simultaneously (yes, really) on the same machine. Sadly it seems that this has been designed in conjunction with those Redmond people, so will be wasted on running multiple versions of Longhorn (woohoo, more licence fees).

It has to be asked, though... what apps and games will really be able to use this? Currently they're all compiled and optimised for uniprocessor machines; even opensource apps are rarely designed to support threading with the exception of system libraries and server apps. Let's hope that software manufacturers, from applications to games, are starting to think about how to make their programs smp-aware and for more than just 2 cores
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Old 5th January, 2005, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitain
Currently .. all [programs are] compiled and optimised for uniprocessor machines; even opensource apps are rarely designed to support threading with the exception of system libraries and server apps. Let's hope that software manufacturers, from applications to games, are starting to think about how to make their programs smp-aware and for more than just 2 cores
They have to from now... this is the roadmap as we know it for the forseable future is it not?
Only the dramatic 'futurescape' technologies that promise to one day change the computing platform drastically will move things away from this certain path.

I would presume that the scarcity of hardware makes such optimisations of code unatractive to developers & in many ways unfeasible. It's an instance of the now cliched viscious circle of software needing hardware to be developed on/for, & hardware requiring software to take advantage of it for commercial adoption.
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Old 5th January, 2005, 05:32 PM
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We'll see the hardware first with maybe 2 or 3 optimised programs, then the software just like is always the case for new cpu technologys
Games will probabally be the easiest to adapt to it as the geometry is no longer cpu related, only the a.i. and physics and I can't see it being too dificult to give them a core each for a simple optimisiation
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Old 5th January, 2005, 07:54 PM
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How long before we get a good on chip OS? One inherently immune to viruses?
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Old 5th January, 2005, 08:28 PM
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ONe of the biggest pushes in the market right now, i believe, is th enthusiast market. Most of us have high-end gamign machines...and they perform great. Most of us are quite satisfied. But when it comes to the people creating the software for this ,arket, and the blend between the 2 sides, seem to require not more processing power, but higher dataflow. One of the slowest things in rendering CGI scenes seems to not be the processors, but the buswidth. I think that because of current limitations (and we all know that proc's for the next 3 years are pretty much 4 weeks from taping for testing), the only way that they can really addres this issue is to go multicore. easy way to double bandwidth, in a way...

I just can't wait to see how they fold...
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Old 5th January, 2005, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
ONe of the biggest pushes in the market right now, i believe, is th enthusiast market.
I would guess you would know this since you are in this business, but I would tend to think otherwise. The huge success of operations like AOL and Dell would tend to argue that the major forces in the market are NOT enthusiasts, but rather Joe Sixpack. Quite frankly, Joe Sixpack couldn't care less if the thing has one core or one thousand; he (or she) just wants a machine that will let him bounce around on the web, send e-mails to his buds, may play a web game or two (maybe even some real games, too), and do it reasonably quickly.

I'm a programmer; I write software for a living. For me, having a machine that can compile my application in 5 minutes instead of 10 is a big deal, because the time I'm waiting on the compile is time that I can't be doing anything else. As a result, I'm willing to pay a premium for that extra speed. Joe Sixpack isn't.

I will agree that enthusiasts are going to be the ones to push multi-cores into the mainstream, but I would not agree that they are the major force in the overall market.

As a side note, pretty much all of my software these days is multithreaded, so it will handle multi-core CPUs just fine.
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Old 5th January, 2005, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~
How long before we get a good on chip OS? One inherently immune to viruses?
Eh, never?
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Old 5th January, 2005, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~
How long before we get a good on chip OS? One inherently immune to viruses?
I can see that there's a possibility that we could revisit on-chip OS'es. I'll start drawing up the plans now...
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Old 5th January, 2005, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo

I'm a programmer; I write software for a living. For me, having a machine that can compile my application in 5 minutes instead of 10 is a big deal, because the time I'm waiting on the compile is time that I can't be doing anything else. As a result, I'm willing to pay a premium for that extra speed. Joe Sixpack isn't.


Here, right here, is the point. In being a programmer, you are the one catering to Joe Sixpack. But The eventual outlook is to make dualcores available to average guy...heck, I've seen sub $500 A64 systems for over 8 months, and how new are they?
You cater to the average user...how much of the population is that? How many users? You need more power to get your work done faster, so that you can churn out more work...so average Joe has something to keep him busy continually. And we need more software than we do hardware...3-4 years to make games or CGI, because the render times sometimes take 6-10 hours. That needs more power...catering to the average guy.
The major push in computing right now just integrating the pc into the livingroom...making it as important to daily life as your tv, your cable box, heck, even as important as the couch. There has to be some place for all the new stuff to fit...how many old p-3's are there floating around...literally by the boxfulls...not being used...because they couldn't do enough for the average guy. So, with the pc being in the living room, it needs to be able to handle video content, audio, internet, and everything else under the sun that anyone wants it to do...or else who gonna buy one? Why, when they can go dump $200 on a p-3 system that will allow them to surf... use thier fancy digital camera, or mp3 player, and with a half-decent videocard, play dvd's in HDTV.
So how do you create more functionality..how do we get average joe to buy a new box? It's has to be able to do it all...and not just for one person...but for the entire family. Having a pc in every room in the house just isn't practical...and will be a tough sell...but if you can fit it all in one box, and maybe have a screen in each room...it might be easier to sell...wireless LCD's anyone?
Having an entire family run off one box require's alot of power...son playing games, mom surfing, sister listening to music, dad watching a movie... easiest way to get that all out of one box, effectively, multiple cores just make sense. But then you get the problem if two people want the same content....and videocard with "turbocache" and "hypermemory" start to make sense....multiple cards fetching from the same cache is more efficient the 2 cards each having thier own...using less power and creating less heat is a huge issue..could you imagine how hot it would be inside the case of a dual-smithfield-core, SLi 6800U setup?LoL.

With all of these things put together..the push only seems to make sense. Average Joe is no longer Average Joe. Average Joe now builds his own.
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Old 5th January, 2005, 11:26 PM
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or gets his mate with the know how to build it for him
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Old 5th January, 2005, 11:39 PM
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Again, I must respectfully disagree.

Joe Sixpack no more wants a PC in his living room than I want to be without one. Joe Sixpack wants a TV, or a stereo, or a PlayStation. If he can get one machine that can do all those things in one box for about the same price that those items would cost separately, that's great. But if all those items are in the same box, he'd better be able to use all of that functionality with the same reliability that he can use that TV, stereo, VCR, or PS2.

Here's a test for you: When was the last time your TV crashed?

Until PCs get that brain-dead and reliable, the notion of home theatre isn't going to fly for Joe Sixpack. And guess what? Making them more complex does NOT make them more reliable!

In short, in my view, the microprocessor is getting so powerful that the really useful devices are going to be the ones that allow the user to work with a computer without the user KNOWING they are working with a computer. One task, or a very few tasks per box, but LOTS of boxes. One that hides in the wall and turns the lights on and off when you leave the room. One that responds to voice commands to switch channels on the TV or stereo. Just use your imagination; the possibilities are endless. Not one box that does everything so-so, but many boxes that do one thing very well. When you reduce the functionality to one or a handfull of tasks, and then apply modern computing horsepower and know-how to that problem, you end up with a very reliable and powerful solution.
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Old 6th January, 2005, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo
Again, I must respectfully disagree.

Joe Sixpack no more wants a PC in his living room than I want to be without one. Joe Sixpack wants a TV, or a stereo, or a PlayStation. If he can get one machine that can do all those things in one box for about the same price that those items would cost separately, that's great. But if all those items are in the same box, he'd better be able to use all of that functionality with the same reliability that he can use that TV, stereo, VCR, or PS2.

Here's a test for you: When was the last time your TV crashed?

Until PCs get that brain-dead and reliable, the notion of home theatre isn't going to fly for Joe Sixpack. And guess what? Making them more complex does NOT make them more reliable!

In short, in my view, the microprocessor is getting so powerful that the really useful devices are going to be the ones that allow the user to work with a computer without the user KNOWING they are working with a computer. One task, or a very few tasks per box, but LOTS of boxes. One that hides in the wall and turns the lights on and off when you leave the room. One that responds to voice commands to switch channels on the TV or stereo. Just use your imagination; the possibilities are endless. Not one box that does everything so-so, but many boxes that do one thing very well. When you reduce the functionality to one or a handfull of tasks, and then apply modern computing horsepower and know-how to that problem, you end up with a very reliable and powerful solution.
A bit like i suggested a couple of months back on a thread about fifa
a centralised computer that all those boxes get their processing power from
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Old 6th January, 2005, 06:31 AM
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Joe Sixpack may not WANT a pc in his livingroom...but a ton of the OEM's, including Intel in a major way, do.

I'm not saying that this is the way it should be going...I don't have the clout to make those decisions. But it's what i see coming.

Microsoft is gearing towards it too, with DirectNext, and MediaConnect.

The high-end home theatre electronics are gearing for it too...just about every HDTV has a DVI connection...just begging to have a X850 or a 6800U plugged into it...well maybe not the 6800U, but that's Nvidia's problem. The new XBOX, with the R500, or what i think will be the "X900"(the X850 is pretty much a higherclocked X800 on PCI-E), just might feature that sort of connectivity...we've got router's for gaming consoles, and internet fridges, Maytag stoves that you can turn on with a remote connection...to get all these things together, each house needs it own "server".


I really get where you are coming from gizmo, but i see what you are describing as myself, not my customers that buy Sony DreamSystems when buying components would cost the same, but get better sound...and just think about every housewife that hates electronics...my wife, although she can't be with out the pda, mp3 player, cell phone, and digital camera, keeps asking me when will there be a small box that can do it all...

Like you said...simplicity...but what's more simple....saying "Lights off", and the light turns off, or getting up and hitting the switch? I mean really...there's what they call an obeseity "epidemic" for a reason...people worked too hard during the day wanting to do nothing but turn into a puddle of goo when they get home. Offer an easy out, and people will take it.

You've gotta try doing over-the-phone tech support... i talked to at least 10 people a day who had a computer and were paying $50 US a month for high speed internet, but didn't even know that the switch they were hitting to turn off thier pc merely shut off the monitor. That works out to $600 US a year...for something they didn't even know how to use...and ended up talking to me when they got confused. If i hadn't seen that, i would be right there on that fence with ya, Giz...but i have to be over here on mine to make sure i keep food on my family's table.
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Old 6th January, 2005, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
You've gotta try doing over-the-phone tech support... i talked to at least 10 people a day who had a computer and were paying $50 US a month for high speed internet, but didn't even know that the switch they were hitting to turn off thier pc merely shut off the monitor. That works out to $600 US a year...for something they didn't even know how to use...and ended up talking to me when they got confused. If i hadn't seen that, i would be right there on that fence with ya, Giz...but i have to be over here on mine to make sure i keep food on my family's table.
Actually, I have done over-the-phone tech support. With other technicians. People who are supposed to have a clue. And couldn't find their a** with both hands, a map, and a compass (or GPS, as the case may be LOL).

One of the reasons that I said I must 'respectfully' disagree is because of the fact that I realize that you are in a situation where you deal with these people on a daily basis. Quite frankly, I think I should be closer to the end user than I am, but management thinks otherwise (why companies feel that engineers shouldn't talk to the people actually USING the product is quite beyond my understanding, and a source of constant irritation to me). As a consequence, it is possible that I may see things a bit more clearly than you do (can't see the forest for all the trees). On the other hand, it is also entirely possible that I am so far from the forest that all I see is a blur, and you have a more accurate picture of the situation.
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