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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 04:06 PM
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I have yet to crush an AMD core.

You have equal odds in crushing the cores with both since there's minor differences and if you're clumsy enough to crush one you're probably equally clumsy to crush the other.

Sorry to hear about the Greece thing, it I know someone in Italy from another board with a similar issue. he gets what he can when he can. I suggest you start a long, hard search for an overseas vendor that will ship to you... I advise you to call newegg or another reputable US vendor and beg for international shipping at any cost, even at $20+ shipping on DDR or a video card you'd still probably be saving money versus buying locally...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 06:22 PM
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Pinky, Orbit, I heard you mates. Oh, one more question for you: are EPOX mobos that good? ‘Cause I’ve notice that almost everybody’s got one!!!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 06:38 PM
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Kaitain: Nice experiment, you did. Still, I can’t understand WHY you did it!!! To prove WHAT? That 2 systems with cpus running at +1500Mhz and the same card perform the same??? But, that’s what everybody would expect!!! Please, read more carefully the whole paragraph:

“And now, its time for our little paradox: are the graphic card benchmarks reliable? What in the name of Uranus do they measure? Certainly NOT ONLY the performance of the card!!! Then what is the purpose of MadOnion to have a Hall of Fame for 3dMark2001, 2001SE, 2000 results??? I may have a powerful PC and a plain card and still to get more marks than another PC with a greater card but lower CPU and ram. So, If you can’t separate PC’s and the card’s performance, its no use…I think that PcMark2002 is much more reliable. Its purpose is to measure CPU’s, memory’s and HD’s performance independently and that is exactly what it does! And what you see in fact is what you get. Anyways, that’s what I was talking about in “chapter” 1 when I said about the “triangle of death”. Unfortunately, cpu, motherboard chipset, ram and card are all related to each other in a 3d benchmark…(and software is another story).”

So in order to prove the opposite of what I've written, I would suggest next experiment:

Try your Radeon with an PIII 866Mhz with PC133Mhz and the same card with your current system. So, run in both of the systems the 3dMark2001 or ANY 3d benchmark, and if you DON’T get a difference of at least 2500 marks, then i will become a priest!!!

Here is another nice experiment that proves that 3d benchmarks CANNOT measure ONLY card's performance:

Do the same test as the above with your current system but with a GeForce2 GTS 32MB DDR. Then benchmark the famous PIII 866Mhz with a GF4 Ti4600. You think that the first system will win just because it has a faster CPU and RAM? I wouldnt say, so. And, thats what i mean...

So, the bottom line is: if you have 2 similar systems with the same card then you will get similar performance, but if you have 2 different systems with different capabilities and the same card, then YOU WILL get a difference! The amount of this difference, though, depends on the difference of the cpu-mobo’s chipset-ram’s capabilities (or performance to be more exact).
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 06:44 PM
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Hoooooooooooooolst!!!!!!!!!! My GOD!!! Are you sure you didn’t OC your card??? I can't believe it…our systems are almost same!!!
So, I’ve got 245 theories that could explain this difference :

1) Its either because we use different versions of 3dMark2001(naaaaah)
2) or, it could be just the drivers, (naaaaaaah)
3) or, it could be just the +81Mhz cpu speed of your system (naaaah)
4) or, it could be just the DirectX version (naaaaaah)
5) or, it could be just the O/Ss (naaaaaah)
6) or, it could be just the +11Mhz FSB speed of your system (naaaaah)

OR ALL THE ABOVE TOGETHER…
OR YOU JUST OC-ED YOUR CARD!!!! (And that’s something MadOnion’s lists don’t and can’t show).


I’ve also noticed that your card didn’t pass the “Advanced Pixel Shader” test. How come???

(Tell me you OC your card, otherwise I ll DIE!!!!)
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freedom
Kaitain: Nice experiment, you did. Still, I can’t understand WHY you did it!!! To prove WHAT? That 2 systems with cpus running at +1500Mhz and the same card perform the same??? But, that’s what everybody would expect!!!
Actually, Freedom, I read your original posting very carefully.

The main reason why I'd conducted the experiment is that I've only recently acquired the new gfx card and was altering bios settings so as to get the most out of it. Random Nonsense's machine has already been tweaked and fettled to its max, so the test was in fact to make sure that my system was performing adequately.

However, my system topped out between 700 and 1000 marks lower than his.

Now because such systems are comparable, the test becomes a valid reference for exactly how much difference DDR ram makes. Which is not a lot.

Scientific method dictates that only one variable at a time is changed - in this case, the only real variable was switch between DDR and SDR.

If I were to follow your advice for alternative tests, then I would be changing all 3 variables simultaneously, so one would be unable to determine which factor was responsible for any given change of score.

I do, however, have "single variable change" results (not posted) for how CPU and GPU speed affect 3dmark scores

* My system as above, but running an AMD Duron 750Mhz @ 933 gave exactly half the score I achieved with the Athlon

* My system as above, but running a Radeon 32Mb DDR (same drivers as the 8500) gave, again, ~ half the score.

Now, it's obvious that a 933MHz Duron as more than half the processing power of a 1.5GHz Athlon, but its ability to shunt data to a GPU is significantly less.

Further, the Mk1 Radeon core is slightly less than half the speed of its later replacement, but performed better in benchmarks than one might expect.

Thus it should be obvious that despite ATi and nVidia's best efforts, the determining factor is still brute CPU power.

Which should actually support your original statement:
Quote:
may have a powerful PC and a plain card and still to get more marks than another PC with a greater card but lower CPU and ram
It also proves that GFx benchmarks are a comparative standard, not an absolute one.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 22nd May, 2002, 09:35 PM
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I see your point, Kaitain...
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 24th May, 2002, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Freedom
Oh, one more question for you: are EPOX mobos that good? ‘Cause I’ve notice that almost everybody’s got one!!!
Welcome to the forums Freedom

You see a lot of people here on EPOX boards because they are very overclockable and very stable...........Yes, they are that good

And if you havent noticed, AOA Forums has a gift from the heavens.........EPOX TECH who gives customer and technical support in this very forum.

But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Dont tell anyone or else we'll have to kill you heheheheheeheheh

BTW If ever you do upgrade to an AMD system, dont worry about crushing the core of your CPU man!! Its not as hard as you might think.....Ive installed a lot of heatsinks from diff manufacturers and so far the easiest Ive installed are the heatsinks from THERMALTAKE. Specifically the Volcano 7.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 24th May, 2002, 05:28 PM
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Thanks JayJay, i'll keep that in mind.

I asked about EPOX mobos because i am also a member of another 4 forums and everybody seems to have one of these...

...and the bad thing is that here in Greece EPOX mobos are not so famous, you know...
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 02:36 AM
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Yeah, I like my Epox 8KHA+. Used to have an Abit KT7A, but it was sorta weird... I'd lose the modem overnight for some reason, and it was a bit pricey compared to my Epox. Price is obviously NOT the deciding factor in motherboards.

Quote:
...and the bad thing is that here in Greece EPOX mobos are not so famous, you know...
Does that mean Epox has a bad reputation in Greece, or that they're hard to come by?

Core crushing. Hmm. well, it isn't like you take your hsf off and put it back on daily, and you simply have to pay attention to what you're doing when installing one. I'm no expert, having only done maybe 10, but I haven't had any problems.

Just for the record, I wouldn't have owned an AMD 3 or 4 years ago. Now, I don't think I'd own an Intel, unless I won it in the Hypothermia contest.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 05:21 AM
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There aren't that many etailers in the US that bother to ship overseas. An easy way to discover if one does is to look 'em up at www.resellerratings.com . Along with other details like the acceptable forms of payment, whether the outfit ships overseas is listed, too.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 02:50 PM
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No, i mean that i have seen only one EPOX mobo in Greece, so far and that was in a greek auction site!!! Maybe they just don't advertise this brand very much like Asus, MSI, Gigabite, Chaintech, QDI and many others...
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 05:00 PM
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Hmmm. Do I see a void that could be filled on Epox and Greece? hehe....

You could be a trendsetter, Freedom ! Awaken Greece to not only Epox, but AMD...
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 10:45 PM
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No, no!!! Don't get me wrong, Orbit, AMD cpus are VERY common in Greece and remember: i don't represend ALL the Greeks. At least AMD processors are very cheap in the greek market...

I did a little research for EPOX mobos at some greek sites in order to find infos, prices and so forth...but nothing. Maybe i should visit a couple of stores myself...:nervous:
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 25th May, 2002, 10:48 PM
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Come on Holst!!!

Give me some more infos about your duron and the 7000 marks of yours!!!!!:nervous:
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 6th June, 2002, 03:08 AM
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This is what I call a thread, so much info makes my head spinning. You are talking about driver perfomance. What really does graphics cards getting old are the game engines being used. Take for example AvP 2 and nolf. They are both based on the lithtech engine which differs from Jedi Knight 2 who uses an optimized version of the quake III Arena version and Max Payne who uses their own game engine. The lithtech engine was first made for blood 2 I think to be able to compete with the upcoming quake III engine. To bad they didn´t succeed very well in some aspects. You can´t just get the same image quality with the lith tech engine which is easy to see when comparing avp 2 to serious sam 2 or jedi knight 2 for example. But what is good with that is that it is much less hardware demanding. You don´t need the newest t&l-gpu and a lot of memory +a billion hertz gpu to run it well. The drivers has very little importance especially in older cards were the drivers really are so optimized already that it makes very little difference.

And what CPU do you need to match your gf3 ti-200?

From my experience with my old ti-500 it didn´t help my framerates at all to overclock my system from 1600+ to 2000+ levels when playing avp 2 for example. So that made my ti-500 bottleneck. However now with my ti-4600 it really is my cpu that is my bottleneck. I ran 3dmark 2000 and actually find that I lost points when overclocking my videocard!!

What also makes video cards look old is that games looks better all the time making you think that games you thought look good looks like **** because your eyes aren´t getting "fooled anymore".

It all seems as a conspiration to make us by newer and expensive videocards doesn´t it? How many here switch cars every third year or so
?

Ï know a lot of americans do but that´s not the point
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 6th June, 2002, 08:57 AM
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I’m afraid I am not talking about the driver performance, mate. I’ve done a lot of research benchmarking both my GF3 and my GF256DDR using different versions of Nvidia’s dets. There is a difference indeed, but NOT that important (+-3% at the most).

Just like you I’m talking about the engines. As you said jedi knight 2 uses an optimized version of the quake III Arena but so does Wolfenstein (if I’m not wrong). But still there is a great difference at the performance of these 2 games. Now, talking about Max Payne, I’ve finished it (again) using the max settings plus 2 step antialiasing and it was VERY smooth. :-D

“The drivers has very little importance especially in older cards were the drivers really are so optimized already that it makes very little difference.”

Heh-heh, believe it or not, the maximum difference between old and new drivers’s performance I’ve got so far was with my old GF256DDR. Plus 3,5% better performance with the 28.32 than with the 27.xx dets. As you said, not THAT important difference…but the greater I’ve ever seen on my system.

Anyway, the truth is that my post is way too big!!! Actually its that big that you can easily miss some important spots…So, ok, the guys that create the games don’t care much about “optimising” their “code” a little bit more just to give the chance to owners of “low-end” systems to play them without having to many probs. Honestly, I can dig this!!! I mean, this is the century of the speed. Companies want to sell. In order to sell they must complete AS SOON AS POSSIBLE what they’ve got. So, no time for any extra optimisation and so forth. Looks like an infinite loop, to me…:nervous:

One of the skipped spots of my post has to do with the benchmarks and the reviews (and reviewers as well). So, if you want to benchmark your cpu-ram-chipset you can do it easily as long as you know that all these 3 components are linked to each other. You can also measure the hard disk-chipset’s performance with no difficulties, as well. But, so far, NONE IS ABLE TO MESURE THE PERFORMANCE OF A VIDEO CARD ITSELF!!! You can measure ONLY your OVERALL SYSTEM’S 3D PERFORMANCE and that is making the whole thing too complicated…I’ve seen people with 2 times faster PCs and a “plain” GF2 GTS getting outrageous bench scores than I am and people with PCs weaker than mine and GF4Ti (yes, there is also this category of people) getting lower scores than my system is giving me!!! So, I wonder, is there ANY OBJECTIVITY AT ALL??? And that’s why (in my humble opinion) reviewers should be using titles like “3D performance of the the YYY system and XXX video card” instead of “XXX video card’s performance”!!! Can you see the difference???

And now (druuuuums) the idea of the day (I am having a brainstorm…#@&$*:devil: ): maybe we should discover a device (more like a module, I’d say) that will be able to measure ONLY the performance of a video card. Imagine a little box with only one AGP slot. This should have the same other components (always) like cpu and so forth and probably these components would be upgraded every 1 year or so. Its would be more like a “hardware benchmark”. So, with this device every dude would be able to measure ONLY the video card’s performance. And we would able to compare different cards to each other and find out what is what and who is who, OBJECTIVELY!!! Just an idea, though…

Thanks for sharing your opinions, mate!!!
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 6th June, 2002, 06:19 PM
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Yes, but than different videocards are more or less cpu dependent. Actually I think this jungle will just be worse considering the parhelia is on the way and some card from 3dlabs and more. There won´t be just ATI and nvidia to dominate the top end graphics market in the future.

And those getting high scores with a gf2 most of the times benches with 3dmark 2000. Since it doesn´t utilize the features of the geforce 3 for example you will find that any gf2 ultra more or less outperforms at least the ti-200 and original gf3 in that benchmark more often than not.

Use 3dmark 2001 it is a different story, but I don´t really care much about 3dmark because a high 3dmark score doesn´t at all guarantee a good real game performance.

quote:

Just like you I’m talking about the engines. As you said jedi knight 2 uses an optimized version of the quake III Arena but so does Wolfenstein (if I’m not wrong). But still there is a great difference at the performance of these 2 games. Now, talking about Max Payne, I’ve finished it (again) using the max settings plus 2 step antialiasing and it was VERY smooth.


I have played all of these games with my ti-500 and all run very good. Yes rtcw uses the same engine as jedi knight 2 more or less. Never had any trouble with jedi knight 2 but I have read in other forums that many have troubles with it. I guess you are using the geforce 3 for that games or does the original geforce really run that well? In that case I must say I am extremely surprised.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 6th June, 2002, 07:36 PM
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Believe me, i use 8 different 3D benchmarks to validate my system's performance (or any others).

I have run Serious Sam 2nd encounter, Wolfenstein, Jedi 2, Quake3, AvP2, Undying any many others using both of my cards. The results were something like this (1024x768, 32bit and 32bit textures):

Serious Sam 2: I finished it with GF256DDR at higher settings. Only a few artifacts...with GF3 everything was ok.

Wolfenstein: All the details set to high. A few probs with low fps using my GF256DDR and almost perfect using the GF3.

Jedi 2: MANY probs with low fps while using GF256DDR AND GF3!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (i hate this game:devil: !!!!!)

Quake3: No prob at all with either of my cards.

AvP2: Maximum settings but great fps with both of my cards:-D !!!!

Undying: at maximum settings i got low fps using the GF256DDR ONLY 3 times in the whole game!!!! GF3 was as groovy...(scary...:nervous: )

Don't have any doubts about the "old" GF256DDR, mate. So, far its the most "honest" video card i've ever seen or used. Of course, you realize that its the DDR that counts in this specific card. And i can say that it easilly outperforms ALL the GF2 MXs with NO PROB.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 8th June, 2002, 06:22 AM
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Freedom, you have like the exact same system specs as me!! no joke! But I can run JKII in 640x480 and 800x600 (both x16 bit) with textures and everything giong on my GE256 32mb....and I only have 256 sdram...lol, Infact, I can run gTA3 also.. i dunno wasa with your system dude, but my stuff runs fine! have you tried scanning your system for drawbacks(e.g. the benjamin virus), thatll take up a good 97% of your processor while playing stuff....(i had to play with this untill I reformatted).
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