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Old 18th May, 2002, 02:33 PM
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Angry I’ve just bought a Creative GeForce3 and i'm pissed off!!!

Ok guys, I ll try to make as quick as I can…

Chapter One: The good “old” graphic card

After a long time I decided to buy myself a brand new powerful graphic card. My old Creative GeForce256 32MB DDR had served me well…no doubt for that…i mean, we are talking about a pretty “old” card which can run Aliens vs Predator 2 at 1024x768x32 with all the settings HI (without AA) very smoothly (with my “old” and “weak” system, of course which you can see at the end of this post). Same with the Undying. For Woolfenstain and Serious Sam 2nd encounter I had to compromised a bit by not setting everything to HI (same resolution and color depth) but I guess that makes a sense. Jedi 2 though was too heavy for this card and so was the Max Payne…but what the heck…I ran 'em at 1024x768x32 with all the other settings left to default. Its just an old card…
So here is the first paradox of the case “graphic cards-PCs-performance”: correct me if I am wrong but Aliens vs Predators 2 is the newest game of all the above. So, how is possible my card to perform this game so good while loosing a batch of frames running Jedi 2 and Max Payne?
I ll say we are standing in the center of a “triangle of death”:
Hardware performance-Software performance
Yeah-yeah, I know, this is not a triangle…yet! But if we want to go lower we ll get something like this:
1)PC hardware performance(CPU-RAM-motherboard CHIPSET and so forth)
2)Graphic card performance(nothing more to say!!!)
3)Games or other graphics application software performance
Are you following me? So, ok…I ve got the PC, I ve got the card and I play 2 different games which both of them are new. And yet, the first plays ok and the second…lets say not so ok…and I wonder, how come? Both of the games have remarkable bitmaps and textures and details…could it be that AvP2 programmers did actually a GREAT JOB by not loading their code with ******? Could it be that they did a GREAT OPTIMIZATION? Who knows…
Don’t sleep on me now, ok?
I know the difference between a nice piece of code and a bad one. You see I am a programmer. I also know very well the meaning of the magic word “optimization” which, by the way, can make miracles. So, once again I am asking…ARE WE VICTIMS OF BAD PROGRAMMERS THAT THEY FORCE US TO BY BETTER AND BETTER HARDWARE??? OR MAYBE IT’S A CONSPIRACY OF HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE MANUFACTURERS? Or maybe I am just crazy…(or maybe Microsoft products is the perfect example--proof of what I’m saying???)


Chapter Two: Searching for a new graphic card (being unlucky)

Yeap! The decision has been made! I am buying a new card! But what card? Ok, let me take a look at my pocket…250 euros maximum (vat included). So, what can I buy with this money? (NOTE: here in Greece they drink our blood, I’d say…) Hmmm…a Geforce3 Ti 200 would be just great. Once again I was both unlucky AND lucky at the same time. Unlucky because it seems there is a lack of Geforce3 Ti 200 (why I have the feeling that their production has stopped?). Again I was unlucky because there is also a lack of Geforce3 as well (what the heck is going on here??? Now I’ve decided to buy a card they ‘ve stop ALL the GF3 production??? Nice timing!!!).
So here is the paradox of the year: Gf3 Ti 200 work ok from what I ve read and it’s a very “young” chipset and “affordable” as well. So IF the thing that Nvidia has stopped the Gf3 production is true, then WHY? Well, how can I explain this…I don’t like MX models. I never did and I never will. Take as an example my old GeForce256. She would tear apart all the Gf2 MX no matter if they had 32 or 64MB ram…and that’s because this chipset is very powerful (while the MX models have chopped down many properties of the real GF2 chipset) and on the other hand none of them has DDR ram. So, Ms Nvidia, I don’t dig your bloody GF4 MX!!! I ve seen the benchmarks and in my humble opinion they suck! Oh, and Ms Nvidia…I CANT AFFORD TO BUY A REAL GF4!!! So, maybe the next time I ll decide to buy a card I should think to get an Radeon …


Chapter Three: The actual purchase ( I am lucky after all!!!)

And, finally I was VERY lucky because I found a Creative Geforce3 64MB DDR with Tv out (probably the last of its kind here in Greece…). 207 euros and vat included. Not bad! Not bad at all! Cheaper than the cheapest Gf3 Ti200 I could find (no-name cards not included) and everyone knows that Gf3 performs better that a Gf3 Ti 200 due to the core and ram speed. Of course the price speaks itself (and it says “buy me because they want to get rid of me…for some reason”). Oh, it doesn’t have ramsinks. But still, I am not really into OC anyway…
Ok, you can see the paradox of this "chapter" with naked eyes: Creative Gf3 cheaper than an Asus 8200 Ti 200 Pure? Nice one!
Chapter Four: Let me see what this baby can do (benchmark it to death!!!)
I think you already know what came next. Plug it, install the drivers and perform a couple…of dozens benchmarks. The first dilemma was what version of drivers to use. Hmmmmmm…lets try the new ones. Det 28.32 will be. Ok. Lets run 3dMark2001SE now. 1024x768x32. Hmmmm…let me think for a moment…a Gf3 Ti 200 gives about 6300 marks…the old Geforce256 gave me 2850…so, I should expect at least 7000…yeah, well, IN MY DREAMS!!! 5450 marks!!! Did I do something wrong??? Nope! 5450 marks!!! ONLY!!! So I bought a famous Gf3 which performs worse than a Ti200??? Lets not jump into conclusions…lets try 3dMark2000…and VGL…and XS…well its either I’m blind or stupid or the card is rotten because in each and every benchmark I did, the card gave me much less marks than Ti 200's.
So, what is wrong with this card, anyway? Actually, its NOTHING! The card performs really great. So, what is it then? I ll tell you what it is: I knew what numbers to expect from all these reviews I had read. There is a small difference though: ALL THE TESTING SYSTEMS ARE EITHER AMD XP 1800+ OR P4 1800 AND ABOVE, WITH DDR AND RAMBUS MEMORY AND BRAND NEW MOTHERBOARD CHIPSETS!!! Well, I don’t know about you guys, but it will take me a lot of time to upgrade my system because honestly I don’t believe its needed. And maybe someone should notify the reviewers that WE DON’T ALL HAVE P4 2.2 Ghz to “play” with!!! And some of US (if not the majority) have Durons 800-1000Ghz, Athlons1000-1200Ghz, PIIIs 800-1000Ghz and Celerons 1000-1200Ghz (or with even less frequency) CPUs, so, please we would be very honored if you could just give us some time by testing all these new cards using less, shall I say…”decent” PCs, in order to have something to compare…otherwise…plain numbers don’t mean a hoot!!!
Well, after a long research for old Creative’s Gf3 reviews I found out that my card is giving me what it was supposed to. What a relief…
And now, its time for our little paradox: are the graphic card benchmarks reliable? What in the name of Uranus do they measure? Certainly NOT ONLY the performance of the card!!! Then what is the purpose of MadOnion to have a Hall of Fame for 3dMark2001, 2001SE, 2000 results??? I may have a powerful PC and a plain card and still to get more marks than another PC with a greater card but lower CPU and ram. So, If you can’t separate PC’s and the card’s performance, its no use…I think that PcMark2002 is much more reliable. Its purpose is to measure CPU’s, memory’s and HD’s performance independently and that is exactly what it does! And what you see in fact is what you get. Anyways, that’s what I was talking about in “chapter” 1 when I said about the “triangle of death”. Unfortunately, cpu, motherboard chipset, ram and card are all related to each other in a 3d benchmark…(and software is another story).


Chapter Five: Lets play some games with everything at HI!!!

Benchmarks are ok cause they give you a general idea. But in practice…Time to try Jedi 2 with every video option in HI. And the winner is…(drums)…NOT ME!!! Yeap, a Geforce3 with a PIII 1Ghz and half a gig RAM cannot play this game with full super-duper details…and I am asking you: am I out of my mind when I am talking about bad programmers? Ok, Jedi 2 has got great textures and bitmaps, but so Serious Sam has…so, what do I have to do in order to play the bloody game with every option flat out? Buy an AMD XP 3000+ and a Geforce6 with 512MB TDR (Triple Data Rate) and 2Gigs of 888Mhz TDR on motherboard??? Gimme a break!!!
(Its your lucky day!!! No extra paradox in this “chapter”. This “chapter” IS THE PARADOX ITSELF!!!)


Chapter Six: Give me some infos, mates…

After I completely busted your b**ls I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
First of all, any ideas about the best version of Nvidia drivers for this specific chipset? (I mean the Gf3 chipset)
And then, how can I put aftermarket ramsinks to my card? Are there aftermarket ramsinks? If yes, how can I “stick” them upon the ram chips?
(Again, no paradox in this “chapter”…or…wait!!! The paradox is that there is no paradox!!!)


Chapter Seven: Outro

Once again, I’d like to thank this forum for hosting my questions-ideas-complaints. Sorry for abusing your hospitality guys…maybe it would be better for me to write a stand-alone “review” instead of wasting your cyber-space…
I would like to hear your opinion about all these subjects, mates, really.

Thanks again!!!

Freedom:devil:
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Old 18th May, 2002, 03:31 PM
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Re: I’ve just bought a Creative GeForce3 and i'm pissed off!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Freedom

Chapter Six: Give me some infos, mates…

After I completely busted your b**ls I would like to ask you a couple of questions:
First of all, any ideas about the best version of Nvidia drivers for this specific chipset? (I mean the Gf3 chipset)
And then, how can I put aftermarket ramsinks to my card? Are there aftermarket ramsinks? If yes, how can I “stick” them upon the ram chips?
Second longest post I've ever read... next to that thread at AMDMB.com for the epox 8kha+ motherboard... I'll admit that I skipped ahead to the question part after reading chapter 3 and seeing I was only halfway done

Beta drivers 28.90 seem to be working well for most. You can put ramsinks on just about anything, so long as you use adhesive heatsink compound like Arctic Allumina or the like.

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Old 18th May, 2002, 08:42 PM
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Thanks Pinky for the infos...and the welcome!

Detonators 28.90??? I thought that my 28.32 was brand new!!!

Anyway, i know that this post is way to long, but it was written to be read.

I really would hear your opinion mates about the situation i am describing...

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Old 19th May, 2002, 12:37 AM
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Welcome aboard AOA Forums, Freedom! Thank you for going to the trouble of posting your detailed, interesting story.

One of my pet peeves is the same as one of your's: Will you %$&^@*! #&^@*#$$^*! PLEASE stop posting all of the "Wow! I love my new GF4 Ti4600! It rocks with my 2.6 Ghz P4 rig!" and similar verbiage. Sure, many people run down to Ma&Pa's PC store and buy everything that's brand new. But many more folks don't!

Oh well, reviews for regular people are hard to find. Maybe not, if you only read reviews that are six months or a year old! Hardware review sites just HATE being bribed/dragooned into writing up good reviews of what's new now.

That's why so many of them publish honest reviews. Cough. The only honest review is when the reviewer buys the product off of the shelf, just like the rest of the world does. Those kind of reviews are just a bit difficult to find.
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Old 19th May, 2002, 03:28 AM
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You expect me to read all of that.......... oh well- i did- but i agree- with cloasters- but i am one my self.............. :-\ i do have some good hardware and i worked hard to get it- Your drivers are OBVIOUSLY to blam for you score- BUT my friends w/ gf3's with all new drivers have the same problem- they can only break 6000 tops b/c of the card ITSELF- I am buying one of those friends cards too for $75 cause they dont like it anymore-
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Old 19th May, 2002, 04:06 AM
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Go here for the drivers.
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Old 19th May, 2002, 09:49 AM
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Spyder462, you can't blame the drivers for a difference of at least 1600marks!!! This is insane!!! I know what a "bad" driver can do to the hardware...but this is too much!!!
So, if you have some time, check some reviews-tests of Gf3 Ti 200 and 500. You ll see that all the Gf3 Ti 200 give at least 6300 marks...and as we know Gf3 performs better than a Ti 200 due to its core and ram frequency...

...but check the testing system, if you don't mind:

"Intel Pentium 4 1800 MHz
ASUS P4TIntel i850
400 MHz RDRAM (2x128MB)"

So, are you sure that its just the drivers??? Or maybe you think that if i had the same system i wouldn't be able to get at least 7000marks???

And something else: i really don't mind if EVERYONE has much better piece of machinery than i do...what i DO mind is that just because i ain't have a super-duper PC, i can't check the performance of my card...and i mean objectively!!!

And by the way, i use 28.32 detonators. This driver gave my old GeForce256DDR about +5% better perdormance than the 23.11.

Oh, and that reminds me this: GeForce256 DDR has given me 2850 marks using 28.32 drivers. There is a nice mega-test at TomsHardware site where almost ALL the cards of the last 5 years are being benchmarked. The testing system, of course, is a "poor" AMD AthlonXP 2000+, ASUS A7V266-EVIA KT266A133 MHz FSB256MB, PC-266 MHz RAM CL2 (2x128MB)!!!
They use the same drivers as i do and guess what!!! My card gives 3500 marks running to theirs system!!!

Is this +20%, or my maths are wrong???

So, maybe after all, its not JUST the drivers Spyder462!!!



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Old 19th May, 2002, 02:37 PM
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On second thought, Freedom, seeing that you "only" have a P3 1ghz, this could very well be holding you back. 1ghz is minimum gaming standards nowadays, and the old sdram chipsets become a bottleneck for the newer cards that can outperform the system (my GF4 would go faster if I had 333mhz bus, etc so it stands to reason your video card would as well).

Have you done a madonion comparison for 1ghz P3 cpus and your video card? You may find you're in the same ballpark with other Pentium 3 owners.
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Old 19th May, 2002, 08:03 PM
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Yeap! After a long research i found a review for my card with an AMD 1200 Athlon as testing system (with PC133 RAM). And i must admit that i kick his a**!!! For 3dMark2001 he gets about 5100 instead of the 5450 marks of my system and for VGL he gets about 54fps instead of 64fps, as well!!! Of course i realize that this is probably because i use 28.32 dets and the review is a kind of "old".

Which reminds me that for this amount of difference i could certainly "blame" the drivers, Spyder462!!!.

Anyway, if you've seen a more recent review whith PIII and GF3, please inform me.

But, still, i really don't think that a PIII is not supposed to play 2002's 3D games...especially with a GF3...

Thanks, Pinky...

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Old 19th May, 2002, 08:10 PM
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Of course it is not the drivers- drivers may account upto a 500p different but not much more- And your right- those GF3 TI 200 get better scores ON BETTER SYSTEMS- infact i have seen many hit 9000 after alittle O/Cing and atleast a 1500mhz processor and ddr- If you want system scores w/ your card and system go to madonion.com and sift threw the recoreds! My friends systems w an athlon 1.2gig/ 512ddr/ gigabyte motherboard/ PNY GF3- get about a 6000- with all newest drivers- i think the score that you got is because of you systems specs- pinky is right- 1gig is the lowend these days- Your "freedom" has been bound by your computer-
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Old 19th May, 2002, 08:18 PM
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1 GHZ is the magical minimum standard for gaming nowadays, but won't be for long
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Old 19th May, 2002, 08:21 PM
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Just think- with the price of AMD xp 1600 ($80 shipped) and a epox 8hka+ ($49 referbed) motehrboard- you could sell your motherboard and processor to pay for it and have money left over!
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Old 20th May, 2002, 07:07 PM
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nVidia Driver Comparisons

Hi folks...
I just finished a comparison of 11 different versions of nVidia drivers and posted the graph. '
I'm using a GF3 Ti200 on an XP1800 (sorry guys, it's the only box I got, I'm not a pro tech guy).
The results are interesting, at least they were to me.
If you want to check out the results, drop by: nVidia Driver Comparisons
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Old 20th May, 2002, 08:27 PM
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Nice job, Orbit!!! By the way, Orbit i like you already!!! You have the same birth date with Jimi Hendrix!!! November the 27th...what a glorious date for music...

Anyway...

Spyder your pal oughts this score to his DDR Ram, but i agree with you...

Guys, before 13 years (and believe me, i'm not very old) i used to have 2 pc's at my home and one of them was a laptop!!! And out of the blue i descovered (or realise, better) the nasty game that some people play with us...let me try to describe it to you: "Buy now, buy after 20 days, buy after 1 month. Get better and better and BETTER AND BETTER PC!!! Spend! Spend!Spend! Spend more!!!"

And the question is: DO YOU NEED A BETTER MACHINE? IF YES, WHY? WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO WITH THIS?

Its nice for me to know my REAL needs! I don't dig to upgrade my system every 2 months just because some people can't do ther jobs right.

Now, about upgrading to an AMD system...how can i put it...i don't like CPUs that blow off if (or maybe when???) their coolers stop working (accidentally)!!! This is NOT the technology i know and certainly this is a good reason for not respeacting AMD. I don't know, maybe its me but i feel that AMD doesn't respect their consumers AT ALL. They are fast, they are cool (NOT LITERALY!!!), they are even cheap comparing to the Intel. But, thanks but no thanks!!!:nervous:
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Old 20th May, 2002, 09:56 PM
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Re: nVidia Driver Comparisons

Quote:
Originally posted by Orbit

If you want to check out the results, drop by: nVidia Driver Comparisons
Interesting. Looks like nvidia's latest drivers are being optimized for the GF4 cards or maybe less attention is being paid to scores and more towards image quality / features (which it really should be IMHO)... that, and making the GF3 "slower" might help along the GF4 sales ...
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Old 20th May, 2002, 11:51 PM
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That's what I was thinking, that the newer drivers are both focusing on the GF4 h/w and image quality.

I really can't complain on either game speed or image quality, and can only guess as to the improvements in the GF4 series.

I've been playing Unreal Tournament (against the computer) with OpenGL, and it's pretty cool. The colors are richer, darker, the effects are cool. It's a little slower, though.

BTW, thanks for the 'Good Jobs', guys. Gotta tell you, after seeing around 44 or more tests in a couple days, ...well, you can imagine.

OH, almost forgot. .. Freedom..
Well, there are issues with AMD, yes, but if you consider those to be requisite to owning an AMD, (the cooling factor, for one, and VIA weirdnesses, for two), the speed increase is phenomenal. I'll never go back to Intel, at least at this point.

But, I had a ball doing my own external radiator/pump thing for water cooling my cpu, and it's not as scary or dangerous as it might sound. And, my BIOS is set to sound the ALARM at 55C, and shut down totally at 60C, something that's built-in to Intel, I hear. So, the overall effect is the same, they both shut down if the cooling fails. The prices of GOOD AMD's and excellent motherboards are extremely low, having just built 4 custom boxes in the last 6 months.
Guess I'm just trying to convince you to give AMD a whirl next time you're wanting to update your stuff ...
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Last edited by Orbit; 20th May, 2002 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 22nd May, 2002, 02:05 PM
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There is also a third issue for AMD cpu’s, Orbit: if you don’t have magic hands you can destroy the core while trying to adjust a cooler on it…

“External radiator/pump”??? “Water cooling”??? What more to say…it’s a goddamned cpu, man, NOT a high performance motorcycle!!!

Yeah, I know that the motherboards that can accept AMD’s have “temerature alarm system”. But, the question is, do you trust ‘em???
Now, about the prices…please keep in mind that I leave in Greece. And Greece is a small market. And a small market ALWAYS sells it’s products more expensive. Also, AMD’s motherboards are more expensive, plus you need a good-big-fast (and also expensive) cooler.
So, even if I wanted to upgrade to an AMD1800+ system, I would have to pay a lot of money for a motherboard (I would prefer AMD’s chipset and NOT VIA’s), a whole lot of money for a nice cooler and DDR RAM (sorry, but I just can’t live with less than a Gig of it!!!) and finally some money for the actual cpu

…well, maybe sometime, I will, Orbit…
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Old 22nd May, 2002, 03:07 PM
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7000 marks isnt a unreasonable expectation from your system.

6500 should be easily obtainable.

Here is my duron 1088 at over 7000 marks
http://service.madonion.com/compare?2k1=2076357

With JK2 I cant run it at absolute highest detail with a GF3 without getting some slowdown. To do so you need a GF4. I found dropping the texture quality one notch wasnt noticable and greatly improoved speeds. (this is running DDR and 1700mhz)

As for getting a higher score, you can drop in
mage quality for a several hundred mark increase, and then you can overclock for a few hundred more. Even if people dont state they are overclocking, the vast majority will slightly to "boost" there score.

Freedom, you seem to have some slightly irrational feard about AMD and temperature/core damage. An Xp processor isnt going to burn your house down. You wont damage your core if you are carefull and know what your doing (if you have questions this is the ideal place to ask) Using a high quality cooler will help, they dont have to be expensive Taisol 760 is a prime example.

If you find AMD expensive then maybee a P4 1.6n DDR system would be a good move for you. If I had the choice between an equivalent speed AMD and a 1.6n then id be buying Intel as well (easy 2ghz overclock)
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Old 22nd May, 2002, 03:39 PM
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Hi, Freedom....
Didn't know you lived in a place where hardware is not easily attainable... I live in the US, lots of outlets here. Man, that must suck, not being able to keep up with things that you read about..
One thing about the water (or two)... this IS an Overclocking Forum, not a regular forum, so our outlook here is probably a bit on the extreme side to most users. Water to me was not an option at first, I couldn't conceive of water and electronics being in the same sentencel... but, when I just built my new box, and realized the 12 fans inside were a bit much, I 'snapped' and went to water, which is very quiet and very cool, temp wise. I don't have windows, or any inside trippy lights, it's my work computer, and I just want it to run fast and stable.

Yes, I DO trust the motherboard shutdown monitors... as much as I would a builtin cpu temp monitor. The point is, though, that my system doesn't ever get CLOSE to those temps. My cpu with water cooling, runs in the low to mid 30's C, and with a very quiet airflow system. Haha... yes, I know it's not a Hi-Perf Motorcycle.. but once again, let me point out this is an Overclocking Forum, and most of us here use AMD, the overclocker's friend.

And, if you're thinking of getting an AMD chipset, you may want to reconsider. I don't think they're in the chipset business now. And VIA has certainly come a LONG way to achieving stability and speed. Like I say, having run both Intel and AMD, I'll never go back to insmell.... Not trying to convince you to change, just giving my positive experiences with AMD, is all.

;0) Crow
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Old 22nd May, 2002, 04:03 PM
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Anyways, that’s what I was talking about in “chapter” 1 when I said about the “triangle of death”. Unfortunately, cpu, motherboard chipset, ram and card are all related to each other in a 3d benchmark…(and software is another story).
Random Nonsense and I tested this out, unofficially, just for comparison's sake, since our systems are comparable.

My system (was - Windows died miserably soon after)
Athlon 1.4Gb @ 1533
256Mb cas-2 SDR memory at 133MHz
Abit KT133a mobo
Radeon8500LE running stock (driver issues caused artefacts on even a modest overclock - seem to be cured w/ the 9031 drivers, and getting rid of powerstrip)
Other irrelevant stuff bolted on...

Random's system was sprawled loose across a table, attracting flying insects.
AthlonXP running @15xx (close enough not to matter)
XMb DDR memory also at 133MHz
Soltek mobo
Radeon8500 underclocked to match the LE, with drivers to match my own
Dust

Basically, the DDR memory (and whatever adjustments the chipset had) made between 700 and 1000 3dmarks (3dMark2k1 first release) depending on when and how often it was run.

Random - can you fill in the extras?

Despite the difference in benchmarking score, in everything except the "Single pass texturing" benchmark, we couldn't see any difference, so for practical use, my much cheaper system performs the same, despite the numbers.
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