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Hardware Hacking The hammer and tongs school of Overclocking. (NOT for the beginner and you assume all risks)


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2004, 09:21 PM
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the whole point in me doing this is for those situations where a motherboard will over-volt a mobile cpu as the registers for a mobile and a desktop are different, or when ur cpu dies and all u can get is a locked one...if it wasn't for people like me, nobody would have an unlocked chip to begin with. I'm sorry, but it kinda irks me when the heading of the topic is hammer and tongs of overclocking...kinda sound like metalworking to me...and the heading says assume all risks. your comments were purely a slight in my eyes...aren't we here to help another? when your cpu dies, and you can only get a locked one, and you wanna overclock, you'll be kissing my toes for the hours it has taken to do this. the only waste of time is me respnding to your comments!lol
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2004, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
...if it wasn't for people like me, nobody would have an unlocked chip to begin .... your comments were purely a slight in my eyes....... the only waste of time is me respnding to your comments!lol
The L5 mod is well documented since December 2003. If it wasn't for AMD selling a mobile barton, we would need mods like this. You are right at least for all people who presently have a locked CPU. I'm still looking for my comment that was an insult to you. You are also correct in that this type of work is highly valuable in the o/c community. I was not trying to put you down, or make you stop. I think your experiments are valuable and you should keep going.

My comments are a caveat to those less informed... I think I am saying this for the 3rd time. For NEWBIES, buy the mobile. Is that clear enough??? I can see you are getting pretty worked up, so I will stop.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2004, 09:55 PM
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lol...if you had been paying attention to earlier posts, i like to debate...i'm not "worked up"..merely arguing a point. when a mobile is $80 more that sometimes is not an option.
my biggest problem is figuring this all out...if the register that enabled mp is now mobile, how is it that this works on older boards? i've got to try flashing to an older bios and see if that has an affect or not. i have 2 post week 0339 and both are "mobiled"...by different traces...
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2004, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
lol...if you had been paying attention to earlier posts, i like to debate...i'm not "worked up"..merely arguing a point. when a mobile is $80 more that sometimes is not an option.
my biggest problem is figuring this all out...if the register that enabled mp is now mobile, how is it that this works on older boards? i've got to try flashing to an older bios and see if that has an affect or not. i have 2 post week 0339 and both are "mobiled"...by different traces...
Gotcha.
Not sure about all models, but for the Barton 2500+, the pricing is about $80 for the regular and $90 for the mobile. For the most part, the mobile overclocks a bit better, but if saving a few bucks is paramount, it is not ridiculous to go for the cheaper chip.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2004, 11:38 PM
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when,like me, u don't have a credit card to order stuff online, you are left going to local resources that pretty much have a monoply for pricing, and don't offer mobile chips for sale. If i could get my hands on a mobile I would...i just bought 4 boards! Alas i cannot. modding id the best i can get. If i had a pic of a recent(within the last 4 weeks or so) mobile i might be able to turn my proc into an actual mobile.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
....i might be able to turn my proc into an actual mobile.
You do that, and you would be an overclocking god!!!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 01:29 AM
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duh...
i'm only a few days away i think..if my kids leave me alone long enough
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
duh...
i'm only a few days away i think..if my kids leave me alone long enough

I don't have a new CPU, but I just pulled a locked 0343 Barton... It hasn't been modded but if pics help at all, just lemme know.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 04:19 AM
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My camera won't take very good closeups, but here is the layout of the bridges on my 2500+ mobile Barton:


L1 |||||
L2 ||||
L3 |xx||
L5 |x||
L9 xxxx
L12 ||x|

L6
x
-
x
x

L8 and L11 are both the same pattern
x
x
-
x
-

The horizontal ones are how I read them from left to right, and the vertical ones are how I read them top to bottom, holding the CPU with the AMD label at the lower edge of the chip.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:11 AM
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rgr that thanks....i was hoping for a pic as there are otherthings that may be of consequence. if at all possible, a scan of the proc strached to fit page would be best(like the one i posted earlier)
the one other problem is that i have a 0411 that is different than a 0412...the traces are farther apartand not exactly in the same place...i am beginning to think the actual pcb layout was changed...but not the pinning.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:28 AM
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hmmm...why is your start up voltage the same as the max?
please please please use a magnifying glass and take a pic of your proc...in my scan if you look close you can see th pcb layout.
i'm pretty sure if i change the max multi to the asme as start up i should be ok.
i took a microscope to the pits today to see wether or not i had them still joined...i did not.
why do we see no L4, L7, or L10?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 03:35 PM
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I have a question....how is it that a mobile chip works in a desktop board without burning out? the voltages are different. the chip is the same mind you. i beleive this is why the mobiles have higher overclocking potential....ther registers for voltage are WAY off!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
rgr that thanks....i was hoping for a pic as there are otherthings that may be of consequence. if at all possible, a scan of the proc strached to fit page would be best(like the one i posted earlier)
the one other problem is that i have a 0411 that is different than a 0412...the traces are farther apartand not exactly in the same place...i am beginning to think the actual pcb layout was changed...but not the pinning.
Geez, you're demanding!

I'll see what I can do.

I have no idea why my startup and max voltages are the same. I just report what I saw.

As for why the mobile chip doesn't burn out in the desktop board, it is because ALL of the chips (mobile and desktop) come off the same production line, using the same process. In other words, they are identical. It's just that random variations in the manufacturing process make some chips work better than others. This means that the mobiles are the cream of the crop at their speed rating. It also means that a mobile will work better than a desktop chip at the same voltage.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 07:09 PM
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i have to disagree about mobiles being better..if that was the case then why would they need a max voltage of 2.0v whilst a desktop is 1.85? i believe(and i could be wrong) that the mobile chips are actual midgrade ones....as powernow drops multis when the system does not need the processing power, this means that most times mobiles will run SLOWER than the "sold at" speed, providing they are in a laptop.
anyone do windows driver updates? there has been a new amd driver in the last 7 weeks. i think this may have something to do with the pcb change.
i know i ask for alot, but i know what i need to get the job done.asking for less would be pointless.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:01 PM
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I wasn't aware that the mobiles went to 2.0v, although I knew the desktops went to 1.85. Whether the chip runs slower than the sold at speed or not is irrelevent. AMD sells a chip that runs 1.93 GHz with a max die temp of 85C and an MTBF of 100,000 hours (or whatever it is). That chip had better by golly meet that performance claim, or there had better be a dislaimer of "at 20% duty cycle" or some such.

Yes, laptops change the speed of the chip depending on what is happening. They change the speed of the chip so that they can lower the voltage to the chip, and they do all of that because they want to be able to save battery power. In other words, the mobile chips are being asked to run in a much more stringent environment than the equivalent model of desktop chip. To maximize battery life and product quality, a 2500+ mobile MUST run at a lower voltage than a 2500+ desktop, and it must also be able to run stably at even lower speeds and voltages as well. I have read reports of 2500+ desktop chips that would puke all over themselves when the voltage dropped by .1 v, no matter what clock speed you ran them at. For a mobile, this is par for the course. My 3200+ desktop wouldn't even POST at 2.2 GHz with 1.55v, yet both of my mobiles love it.

So, I stand by my original assertion that the mobiles tend to be of higher quality than the desktops. In my experience it appears to be true. YMMV.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:17 PM
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MTBF= Manufacturer Tested Before Fail..
if you have a 2500+ mobile..check where the voltage markings are. the max for a mobile is 2v...and your mobile has the same startup voltage as max. this is why i asked.
powernow will lower the multiplier and voltage to 5x on standby, theresulting frequency depending on the grade of the chip.
it is not nessecary for a mobile to operate @ a lower voltage than as desktop...it just need to able to adjust voltage in order to not burn out when the multi is reduced.(you know what i'm talking about if you have done a burn-in..raising the voltage @ stock speeds raises temps). there reason your mobiles love 1.55v...check what the resulting voltage is when u change the VID codes to mobile from desktop...it equals 1.4... and now u see my prob....
2500+'s have more potential because they are the lowest speed barton available...meaning that they can take a 2800+ or a 3000+ and downgrade it to a 2500+M...and this is what makes me think they are "midgrade" as i say..i think you miss-understood me..i meant mid-level, not mid grade. something has to allow for the chips to have a max of 2.0 instead of the max1.85 for the same chip in desktop variety
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:25 PM
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The mobiles are superior overclockers.
Most desktop bartons are not able to run their stock speed at 1.45v. As with the mobile 2500+ and 2600+. They are more tolerant of heat and are rated up to 100c. This may be why they opted to have the higher max vcore.

You are kidding about MTBF, right?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 08:43 PM
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MTBF..not kidding..check it out. usually if i am not sure i say i think or i believe...
do you not think that my theory that mobile2500+'s are higher grade chips than a 2500xp?you've got me confused now..i agree with you and you disagree!lol!
i'm saying that they take a peice of silicon intended for a 3000+ or so and by running it @ a lower frequency, they can up voltage or whatever they like]
2500+@1857mhz or 3200+ @ 2.25? which one runs hotter?
lower the 3200 to 2500 speeds and up the voltage...same heat as it running @ the higher frequency. more voltage (in moderaton) leads to stability..that's why we overvolt our chips, right? do you follow me now?
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Old 29th April, 2004, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
MTBF= Manufacturer Tested Before Fail..
Errr..........no. I don't know where you go that from, but in engineering land, MTBF = Mean Time Between Failures. It is a method of determining the reliability of a part.

There are two types of MTBF, predicted and actual or demonstrated.

Predicted MTBF is done by operating the device under extreme conditions (i.e. beyond design limits), and then seeing how long it takes to fail. This is how you take a brand new device and claim that it has a MTBF of 100,000 hours (roughly 10 years). There is a lot of statistical data that goes into modeling the failure modes and rates, so this is not just a wild guess. It is backed up by solid mathematics.

Demonstrated MTBF is done by operating the device at maximum stress until it dies (this is also called 'Life Testing'). You only get this with devices that have been in production for at least as long as the demonstrated MTBF figure.

Most companies will take a few products from each batch and subject them to reliability testing to help ensure that their manufacturing process is producing the quality of product they thing it is. SOME companies will also take a few products from each batch and put them through life testing. If you want to know how good a product you are getting, one of the first questions out of your mouth should be 'Is that MTBF predicted or demonstrated'?

This is one of the reasons that many mass-produced cpus make the transition to the embedded market only after they are obsolete in the mass market: it takes that long to build the body of data necessary to demonstrate the device's reliability. Engineers for embedded applications tend to be a rather conservative bunch to start with. Most of them will run a sales guy out of town on a rail if his MTBF is predicted rather than demonstrated.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2004, 10:55 PM
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ok then. average time between failures.but um..aren't they kinda the same thing. i had the acronym wrong...but the idea right. i feel like a blond.*giggle* oops.
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