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Hardware Hacking The hammer and tongs school of Overclocking. (NOT for the beginner and you assume all risks)


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 03:04 PM
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God bless you for that

...um, for future reference, where is your spreadheet? Is it online somewhere?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 03:11 PM
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We hope to get it online one of these days.....
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 03:17 PM
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Look forward to it. BTW, do you know whether my non-NV40 status means I should/shouldn't use a certain flavour of drivers?

I just got (AFAIK) a standard Forceware release shipped with my card, so figured it was okay to use any 6800-compatible release. Like everyone though, I'm after performance increases where possible, and maybe someone's done some optimised work for my chipset?

Just hoping...
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Old 15th May, 2006, 03:24 PM
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Until it is online however, I am here all the time working with Gizmo on the files site among other things, and am more than happy to help you overclocking and tuning your system for performance.

To get the best performance, you folow this order:

Unlocking
Tuning
Overclocking
Futher tuning

You can't unlock, but you can tune your system, you can overclock, you can volt mod, and overclock more, you can mod your cooling, and you can use drivers to extract more performance.

We host TweaksRUs Xtreme-G modified drivers as well as the full compliment of Nvidia drivers, always as soon as they are released or leaked. I highly recommend using the XG version of drivers, as they do improve things for free.

Driver updates mean more performance, and tweaked drivers can offer more performance and/or more image quality.

Furthermore, by understanding the weakpoints and strengths of your card and system, you can set your display settings (resolution, AA, AF, texture quality, HDR etc) to play on the strengths of your system. This counts for a massive amount of performance, and should never be overlooked.

The people here are happy to help, and we have guys that are good at nearly all subjects, including some ATI guys, motherboard experts, a printer genius, and many assorted others.

If you need help, just ask mate.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 03:33 PM
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Theres actually a new driver I'm uploading at the moment. Should be up in a couple of minutes.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 03:42 PM
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OK, here it is: http://files.aoaforums.com/I2482-nVi...87.25.exe.html

This is the driver that was shipped out to the reviewers with the new 7900GX2 cards. This means that they have no doubt squeezed more performance out of the drivers to further show the 7900GX2's performance compared to old versions, and is rumoured to have several optimizations for F.E.A.R among other things.

The Geforce 6 (NV4X) is basically the same as the Geforce 7 in nearly every way, and as a result, performance and image quality improvements that effect the Geforce 7, also have a similar effect on the Geforce 6.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 06:56 PM
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dsio:

first of all, thank you for your information about my 6800GS. it's good to know that.

Quote:
Screw Rivatuner, and get Powerstrip. If you don't need unlocking, and in your case, you physically cannot, then Powerstrip is more powerful, and gives better options, and better overclocking choices.
i do study information science, but 3d design mostly not hardware. erm, i know what unlocking basically is (such as cpu unlocking). it's basically unlocking the card so that you can tweak the multiplier, right? you said that phisically i cannot unlock my card, but with software i can? i remember that i had to unlock my old athlon by making a connection with a lead pen. so, if my vga is phisically locked, what does the software do that unlocks her?

Quote:
Unlocking
Tuning
Overclocking
Futher tuning
what exactly do you mean by tuning? tuning such as volt modding?

about this new driver that you've uploaded, u think i should get it too for my 6800GS?

Quote:
If you need help, just ask mate.
there is actually one more question, not regarding to this very card. it's about my old Leadtek A400 6800GT TDH that just died about a month ago. but erm, there is a whole history about this problem, and for some reason, i still don't believe it's actually dead.

so, would it be possible for me to contact you via MSN or something? i wouldn't wanna write a whole article that would be uninteresting to other people on this forum. please let me know, the only thing i want to find out is if it's really dead or not.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 10:55 PM
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but then again, if u care to read it here i'd be glad to write down "a few" words regarding this problem
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 15th May, 2006, 11:01 PM
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Hey, the whole point of this place is to share info, dude! Feel free to write a whole book if that is what it takes!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkomarci
dsio:

first of all, thank you for your information about my 6800GS. it's good to know that.



i do study information science, but 3d design mostly not hardware. erm, i know what unlocking basically is (such as cpu unlocking). it's basically unlocking the card so that you can tweak the multiplier, right? you said that phisically i cannot unlock my card, but with software i can? i remember that i had to unlock my old athlon by making a connection with a lead pen. so, if my vga is phisically locked, what does the software do that unlocks her?



what exactly do you mean by tuning? tuning such as volt modding?

about this new driver that you've uploaded, u think i should get it too for my 6800GS?



there is actually one more question, not regarding to this very card. it's about my old Leadtek A400 6800GT TDH that just died about a month ago. but erm, there is a whole history about this problem, and for some reason, i still don't believe it's actually dead.

so, would it be possible for me to contact you via MSN or something? i wouldn't wanna write a whole article that would be uninteresting to other people on this forum. please let me know, the only thing i want to find out is if it's really dead or not.
OK, CPU unlocking is the unlocking of the multiplier, which allows for overclocking. This is actually very different physically to unlocking video cards, though the results are somewhat similar.

A CPU is more or less a single pipeline, running at a very high clockspeed.

In comparison, a GPU, is a series of multiple pipelines, each running at a low to moderate clock speed, simultaneously.

Theoretically relating them, a single pipeline video card operating at 500Mhz, would be comparable to a dual pipeline video card operating at 250Mhz. Comparable, but in no way the same.

Pipelines are parallel in nature, and allow more operations to be completed by the GPU as a whole for each clock. So a 16 pipe card allows 16 things to be done per clock. It isn't a matter of more pipes makes the card able to do things faster, as its fixed at its clockspeed no matter how many pipelines it has.

A comparison would be cars and planes. Say, you had to move 30 people from point A to B. The plane can go at 300KM/H, while the cars can go at 60KM/H.

So you would assume that the plane would do it faster. And if there were only 2 people to move, that would be the case. But there are 30. So 6 cars, carrying 5 people each can carry all 30 people at once to their destination, while the plane is still making trip after trip.

This is the very simplified nature of multi-pipeline graphics cards.

Now on the NV40 chips (6800U, 6800GT, 6800LE, 6800NU(Version 1.0), 6800LE(AGP)), they all have 16 pipes on them from the fab. However the 6800NU and LE, only have 12 enabled, while the LE only has 8.

They disable those extra pipes (1) because they are sometimes damaged, and as such they disable the weaker 4 pipes, and (2) because there is demand for that chip, and they need to produce them, even if the pipelines disabled are perfect.

Unlocking, is enabling those pipelines, to increase the number of operations that can be completed per clock. On your card (NV42), this is unfortunately not possible, however all is not lost.

Your card is 12 pipes at 450Mhz, which is comparable to a 350Mhz 16 pipe card (6800GT). With a higher overclock, say 500-550Mhz, it would be about the same as a 6800 Ultra.

Your card, despite being only 12 pipes, is made on a better process, and as a result clocks higher at stock, and overclocks higher. Which makes up for the difference in pipelines.

I will post again later... My fingers are tired.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 03:04 AM
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All this aside....with a dremmel and some wire you can "Unwork" the card.

Also I find rolling round the floor in a wooly jumper and then stroking each memory chip does wonders for my overclocks!
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 11:24 AM
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thank you for your explanation dsio. so erm, aren't these pipelines actually the things that are sometimes called busses? you know like cpu architecture with two busses brings data to the ALU from two lines etc etc. that's the same ain't it?

Quote:
Hey, the whole point of this place is to share info, dude! Feel free to write a whole book if that is what it takes!
aight, but you asked for it

so here's the story. i got this Leadtek A400 6800GT TDH, 256MB about 18 months ago. i got it in summer so the temperatures were a bit high, it would get up to +70°C on the Leadtek. a problem that would often appear is that the computer would just restart while playing a very hardware demanding game. but it would work just fine even after ther restart. i thought perhaps the GPU temperature was too high so i installed an additional 80mm cooler that was additionally cooling the card. after that, the situation was better.

however, there was this problem that would appear quite rarely, about every 3 months or so. while playing a game, or working in Maya (like i said, not every time, very rarely) the computer would simply restart but monitor wouldn't get any signal from the vga, just blank screen with monitor led flickering. it would be like this for several hours, or sometimes even a whole day without vga sending signals to monitor. and then, it would just start working again, and everything would work without any problems for months. this is the thing that happend about 10 times in this year and a half.

1. what i used to do to kinda test what was wrong is: i would turn on the comp (still no signal of course) and disconnect the monitor from my vga -> a message would appear on the monitor saying that the monitor cable is unplugged from the vga.
2. i installed another card only to enable error report in BIOS, put back my leadtek, and disconnect molex...the comp would make a sound just like when there are errors. meaning? it figured out that at the moment vga wasn't getting enough power via molex.

but a month ago, i was doing some work in Maya (3d) and the monitor lost the signal again. -->standard procedure...leave it for several hours to cool down maybe. but this time even after 3 days it wouldn't start.
same like before, btw...it would spin the vga cooler for about 3 seconds after i'd turn the power on on the comp, and the same when i would turn it off. (it was like that before aswell when the problem would appear).

i tested the vga on other computers and it also wouldn't work, i tested other cards on my mbo and they work just fine.

i don't get this, 1. the monitor doesn't get any signal from the card, but whenever i disconnect the cable that message appears.
2. motherboard doesn't make the error sound until i try to start it with disconnected molex.
3. the cooler starts for 3 seconds and stops, so some power must go through the card at that time.
4. + if there was really something very wrong with the card, wouldn't the MBO make the error signal when i'd try to start it (with molex connected)?

btw, i have chieftec 350W PSU, was it too weak for the vga + cpu? it could max out at more than 400W i guess. more than 200W for vga i think, + could be more than 200W for the cpu. could this be the reason for these vga crashes? could it be that this very thing fried my card or something?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 12:06 PM
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350w should have been enough, the 6800gt doesnt draw anywhere near 200w nor does the cpu, however if the temps were very high then it could have overheated and died.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 12:44 PM
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350W in an Enermax would have been barely enough. 350W in a chieftec is nowhere near enough. They are completely generic PSUs, with no quality.

That is why your 6800GT is dead. I've seen 6800GTs get fried by generic 500W units as well. A 430W or better Enermax, OCZ, or equivilant will hold that thing, with power to burn easily. That thing was too little.

Also, make sure the +12V line going to the card is not shared with anything else. 6800LE, 6800GT, it doesn't matter. It cannot share its rail with other crap.

Putting a hard disk on the same line as the 6800 is going to turn it into blue smoke rapidly.

It isn't a matter of your system drawing more than 350W. Its a matter of your 350W cheap PSU will start coughing and spluttering if its made to provide 230W or more of real power. And when you are loading up one rail more than the others, it multiplies the problem.

Hyundai claim their Accent can do 109Mph. Yea. Right. At 65Mph the little Korean trolley is chanting "I think I can, I think I can!". By 70Mph its going "Please kill me!".
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 01:07 PM
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Meh, my superflower 400w will run my pc no fuss, thats got about as much quality to it as a ring in a plastic egg.
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Old 16th May, 2006, 01:18 PM
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i thought it might that PSU might've been the reason.
it's just that the strange thing was that it used to "wake up" after several hours, while most cards will keep resting in peace.
i better get a better PSU then ASAP

what do you think about Tagan PSUs?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONKEYMAN
Meh, my superflower 400w will run my pc no fuss, thats got about as much quality to it as a ring in a plastic egg.
They usually do run with no fuss. Its what happens when they stop running that causes the fuss. Aside from that, your Geforce 7 draws considerably less power than a Geforce 6, and the Nforce 4 mobo, and PCI-E slot can push double the power on its own that an AGP slot can.

Its not even a remotely fair comparison due to the vast differences in hardware.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 02:42 PM
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but you would agree that a 350w PSU of an brand SHOULD be enough to run his system?

I am not arguing the fact that some power supplies are a heap of crap, I am perfectly aware that some continuous load ratings are vague/unreliable to say the least and reliability is directly related to cost in most cases, however....A 350W PSU should be enough to run just about any single card system.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 03:04 PM
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No, from experience that simply isn't the case. "Comes with case" PSUs are notorious for this. I sent my Thermaltake Xaser II 6000 Aluminium case to the panel beaters for some dent removal and scratch repairing and had a "Ztech" case with a 400W PSU included in the deal, which I had bought for a linux box build as my temporary housing.

With the 6800GT it refused to POST. Just fans spin up, hard disk spin up, and nothing. I had to remove the thing, and stick one of my good Enermaxes in it just to use the machine. Subsequently, that PSU went back into the case, and ran an EPoX 8K3A, with a 2400+ at stock, 1GB RAM, and a Geforce 4 TI 4600.

Under folding 24/7 it blew a capacitor after half a year. Thankfully it didn't take out any hardware with it, but thats what you get for being cheap.

350W of any brand simply isn't good enough. The 6800GT, which he talks about, draws the best part of 80W on its own. A total system built around an AMD CPU with be drawing 300W (mine draws between 300-350W loosely measured).

300W sounds like its under the 350W barrier, but that 350W is total power, when evenly distributed over all rails.

In an Nvidia / AMD machine, the +12V rail is taking a massive majority of the load, and its what gets pushed over the edge. That is why 350W is not enough.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 16th May, 2006, 03:37 PM
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However were your system not overclocked then the total power consumption would be a lot lower, I think in this case it is more likely that the power supply was shoddily put together using second rate components rather then a 350W PSU not being enough for the task.
Its more down to quality of build rather than the 350W title, your Hyundai in a previous example might have a 109mph rating and 9/10 will hit that speed,the one that doesnt will shake a crappy japanese bolt loose and fall apart like my arguments.

I guess what im trying to say is that is the dunces who labelled power supplies weren't a bunch of hell-bound numpties then a 350W PSU should work just fine.
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