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Intel Motherboards & CPUs Questions or comments on INTEL products?


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 27th April, 2002, 08:46 PM
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Hi Gang,

I too, have the temp problem with my 4SDA+ [Is there anyone out there that gets accurate temps on this board?], and wish EPoX would fix it. From what I've seen, it doesn't happen on other 645 boards. I have run everywhere from 2.0 to 2.6 [2.0 Northwood], and from 1.4 to 1.7 VCore, and have noticed very little change in the MBM and Sandra temps-maybe a degree or two. I would love to uninstall MBM and just ignore the problem, but I can't do it. Otherwise, I'm very satisfied with the board with it's excellent stability and overclockability. I also tried the latest monitoring program from EPoX, but can't get it to register a CPU temp-it says Cpu, but it's really the system. Come on EPoX if you're listening, give us a bios fix!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 27th April, 2002, 10:13 PM
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1.) Other SIS645 boards do have this problem too. This is the good news.

2.) EPOX will fix it when/if they wish, it's upto them and that's the bad news.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2002, 02:18 PM
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Re: 4SDA+ BIOS FIX needed (FOR EPOX TECH)

Quote:
Originally posted by GFORCE100
Basically said as most know it already the EPOX 4SDA+ reports the CPU tempreture way off scale to what it really is. This has problems such as making it impossible to overclock as well as on the 4BDA2+ due to the P4 turning itself off due to thermal protection.
The Thermal shutdown control on the P4 is implemented in the silicon. Should that thermal monitor diode exceed 135C, then the processor will automatically shutdown and expect power be removed within 0.5seconds.

No amount of BIOS code can work around this - it's physically implemented within the P4 to prevent self destruction should the software fail - Some OSes don't USE the BIOS at all when they are operating, so BIOS code cannot protect the processor.

The thermal sensor provided for external systems to read is implemented completely seperately from the thermal shutdown control. Hence, suggesting that the failure of the board to read the temperature causes the processor to shutdown has no merit, as the motherboard has no control over the P4's thermal shutdown control.

CPU throttling is implemented seperately from both the thermal diode, and from the thermal shutdown control. The CPU throttling can operating in one of three modes.

Firstly, Automatic mode, which requires the BIOS to enable it, has no settings that the BIOS can alter. Once enabled, the P4 throttling circuits decide when throttling will take place, and what the duty cycle will be. No software is needed for this to take place, it's all silicon.

Secondly, OnDemand mode allows software to manually set the duty cycle even if the processor is not hot. If Automatic mode is enabled, then it WILL override any of the OnDemand settings in order to protect the processor.

Lastly, clock throttling can be disabled entirely. At this point, the ONLY protection provided by the P4 is the thermal shutdown. Should the processor get hot enough, then it will shutdown, regardless of any software, BIOS or otherwise.

Please, before you claim that a manufacturer has to fix a problem ensure that you understand the problem entirely. The automated P4 shutdown cannot be influenced by ANY board manufacturer.

Lastly, the SIS645 has no hardware monitoring abilities. On the 4SDA+ board, all hardware monitoring is done by a Winbond W83697HF. The WD83697 would appear to support thermal inputs from Deschutes diode, thermistors or 2N3904 transistors.

If I understand correctly, the Winbond chip may not physically be able to read the temperature from a P4 die. If this is true, then no amount of BIOS code can work around it, which would explain why you have NOT seen any BIOS code to "fix" this non-existent problem.

In addition, nowhere in the specs of the board does it mention the capability to monitor the P4 thermal diode. Perhaps you are asking the impossible?

AidanII

Edit: spending 60mins going through datasheets screws my spelling up...
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2002, 03:56 PM
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To put it short this board (the EPOX 4SDA+) is less effective at overclocking P4's than it's 4BDA2+ brother is. Tests done with the same tests show that the 4SDA+ will cause your CPU to lockup much sooner than the 4BDA2+. We're talking 100's of MHz.

And if the Winbond hardware monitor chip cannot monitor P4 temps then why was it chosen to be used on this board anyway? What's the whole point of the design stage?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2002, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GFORCE100
To put it short this board (the EPOX 4SDA+) is less effective at overclocking P4's than it's 4BDA2+ brother is. Tests done with the same tests show that the 4SDA+ will cause your CPU to lockup much sooner than the 4BDA2+. We're talking 100's of MHz.
And heat is the only possible thing that might cause this? What about all the other variables that factor into overclocking?

Quote:
And if the Winbond hardware monitor chip cannot monitor P4 temps then why was it chosen to be used on this board anyway? What's the whole point of the design stage?
I presume you skipped most of my last post, as you don't seem to have worked this bit out... Thermal control is INTEGRATED ONTO THE P4 SILICON. External monitoring is NOT required, as the P4 is quite capable of looking after itself.

At a guess, as I'm not the boards designers,the Winbond HM chip is in the design to monitor other environmental factors such as tacho outputs, voltage rails and other thermal factors such as ambient air temperature. Why would you put YET another monitor in, when the CPU has a far more effective and far more failsafe thermal control right on the silicon itself? The CPU's temperature monitor is capable of dealing with failure of almost the complete system (voltage regulation is a noticable exception).

Are you getting the picture now?

AidanII
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 28th April, 2002, 10:47 PM
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Of course I am getting the picture, the P4 thermal protection is there also, however I was addressing the board not the CPU. This is why I didn't comment on the P4 thermal mechanism you outlined well in your previous post.

As for overclocking yes, many tests have been made to come to such a conclusion. I know what hardware can do what speeds and on this board the CPU is always the one to blame at anything even slightly over 2.5GHz. Even at 2.5GHz you are pushing your luck.

It seems whenever this EPOX reports a CPU temp of around 75C+ the problems will start happening.

Using a peltier and/or watercooling would back up this statement.

P4 thermal protection sure, but thats not the issue here.

I have tested the hardware on other boards.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 03:39 AM
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Now, would it be possible to turn off throttling with a BIOS option by not telling it to initialize???
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 04:44 AM
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Perhaps I'm missing something here, but why don't those who a) remark incessently about how the 4BDA2+ is so much better than the 4SDA+, b) own a perfectly nice 4BDA2+, and c) get better overclocks on the 4BDA2+, simply use the 4BDA2+! I can understand how this would be a big deal if you only owned a 4SDA+, but the chief "remarker," shall we say, meets all of the above conditions. So why don't you simply use your 4BDA2+ for your greatest overclock, and use a CPU that doesn't overclock as well in the 4SDA+?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 08:27 AM
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Perhaps to rephrase this from my perspective..

If the cpu temperature cannot be accurately measured on this board then i would not reccomend it for overclocking operations.. as measuring the temperature is obviously very important.

Very dissapointing to those who have put money into it without realising the problem.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 11:46 AM
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Superman

You have a point there. However what you miss out is that the 4BDA2+ forces you to run the RAM at lower speeds than the 4SDA+. On the latter you can run it at over 400MHz with proper RAM with only marginally increasing the FSB. It has a 2:4 memory option thus it yields better memory performance.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by moo
If the cpu temperature cannot be accurately measured on this board then i would not reccomend it for overclocking operations.. as measuring the temperature is obviously very important.

Very dissapointing to those who have put money into it without realising the problem.

Let me get this straight. You went out and bought the board, assumed it could monitor the CPU thermal diode, and then discovered it couldn't?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 02:24 PM
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absolutely.. stupid expecting something like this to work obviously.

and your point is?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 04:38 PM
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The point that Aidan is making is that you purchased something, to find afterwards that it didn't behave how you "guessed" after giving no prior thought or official line of questioning to gain information to substantiate such a purchase.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 04:46 PM
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wow there is some seriously nasty "attitude" on this board.

My complaint is a valid one.. i think these days people expect to see thermal monitoring in place and functioning on any reasonable motherboard.

To say that it's my fault because i didn't specifically check for this is absolutely unacceptable.

Still it's not a "mistake" I shall make again - Epox just lost alot more business than they realise
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 05:11 PM
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Yes take the typical approach guys, ignore a problem exists, after all it's only little customers who pop their heads up saying oh there is a problem.

If this is how Epox wants to run the business let it be. Others can get things right and if not fix the errors.

Epox musn't forget it's only a small company next to MSI, Gigabyte, Asus etc.

And don't go saying "The point that Aidan is making is that you purchased something, to find afterwards that it didn't behave how you "guessed" after giving no prior thought or official line of questioning to gain information to substantiate such a purchase."

Your job is to make the product work, your design team is responsible for this and not the customers who use as the bug finders.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 05:36 PM
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My managers and directors tell me how to do my job thankyou very much GEFORCE100.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 05:46 PM
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 05:56 PM
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I think that MMX wanted to link here
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 05:59 PM
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EPoX Tech

Your managers and directors must have little experience in what makes a company well seen in its respective market.

If an OEM came to you and said I wish to sign a three year contract for such and such boards Epox would move like the wind to get that OEM satisfied. Failing to would mean terminating the contract or never signing a new one.

You are the only company that fails to admit things arent so goodie goodie as you may think or pretend they are.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 29th April, 2002, 06:13 PM
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Geforce, are you here to harass or find information in a constructive manner?
If you cannot offer constructive criticism, I suggest you don't offer any.
It is one thing to ask a question, quite another to demand an answer.
I am not impressed with the way you are presenting yourself on this board. Whether you are speaking to another member or our Epox Tech, that kind of attitude will NOT be tolerated.

Perhaps you might want to re-adjust your way of presentation on this forum.
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