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Intel Motherboards & CPUs Questions or comments on INTEL products?


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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April, 2002, 01:23 AM
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4SDA+ BIOS FIX needed (FOR EPOX TECH)

I'm aware this issue affects a lot of SIS645 boards, however it's one that can be fixed.

Basically said as most know it already the EPOX 4SDA+ reports the CPU tempreture way off scale to what it really is. This has problems such as making it impossible to overclock as well as on the 4BDA2+ due to the P4 turning itself off due to thermal protection.

By solving this inaccurate reading it would permit overclocking to really become possible over 2.55GHz.
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Old 22nd April, 2002, 02:39 AM
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Do you have any information on how the P4 measures and interprets temperature readings from the internal diode.

Why would intel make the motherboard part of the clock reduction and overheat protection system when the components are onboard the chip.

If there is some regulation via the motherboard would it be possible to find the relavent CPU pins and possibly find a way to disable/reduce this effect ?
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Old 22nd April, 2002, 02:45 AM
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Well I don't know specifically but it seems to be thermal protection giving it at 1.85V regardless of GHz rating.


The fact that I get a black screen at 1.85V when I know it does work on other boards suggests the CPU tempreture readings in the 4SDA+ somehow affect the P4's initialization sequence internally.
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Old 22nd April, 2002, 03:03 AM
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Before I say any more I should tell you I have been drinking.

I dont know very much about P4 boards in general, and I know very little about the SIS chipset.

If your having problems with stability at higher voltages then I can think of these possible causes.

PSU
Overheating.
CPU not liking it
Motherboard - Could be a variety of problems.

PSU problem is unlikely.

Overheating....its a possibility, can you improove cooling ? (even with a loud fan as a tamporary measure)

If other CPUs will run 1.85 then yours should, there is the possibility of your having a poor chip.

Motherboard - over current protection. overtemperature protection...exagerated by innacurate measurment. there are probably other more technical problems that are a possible cause (wheres Dimreaper when you need him :P )

I dont think it would be intels own CPU throttling, attempting to disable or modify the motherboards temperature measurment may help fix the problem....but only if your hypothersis is correct.

(not bad for a drunkard )
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Old 22nd April, 2002, 03:06 AM
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I just thought of something else.

You have to overclock on the FSB with these boards.

So that adds into the equation memory and chipset timings and voltages.

Could the 1.85v to the CPU be causing a voltage change to other components ?
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Old 22nd April, 2002, 11:34 AM
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No I nailed it down. It's not the CPU as it's been in 3 boards so it's been tried andf tested.

At 2.2GHz it won't take 1.85V so this proves that something is not right.

The memory however works at DDR 400MHz fine, but the FSB needs to rise in order to make extra use of it. The 533MHz FSB P4's will be the killer ones with 600MHz FB+ speeds from simple overclocking. Bandwidth will rule.
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Old 23rd April, 2002, 09:14 PM
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Posted this as a thread somewhere else.

on my 4SDA+ with P 1.8 NW I also idle at 50 degc and load goes up past 70 degc witch causes CPU throttling.

voltage and FSB has little effect. Still get past 70degc
So on went an Aplha heat sink to fix the problem......
No deal, had little effect maybe a 4 degc drop to the figues quoted above. £45 cooler to little effect.

I have checked the heatsink seating and played around to ensure good seating etc, till I'm blue in the face, even using Arctic Silver 3, but I think a problems afoot.

Even on start up in a room less then 20degc CPU temp starts out at 50degc. Quickly to idle at 55 to 60 using apps 70+ on load

Anyone else coming to same conclusion
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 23rd April, 2002, 09:36 PM
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Well everybody gets this problem as no BIOS yet fixes it.

In my mind it's a quick fix. All we need to do is first determine 1.) The actual CPU tempreture and 2.) The difference between the result from 1.) and what the current BIOS reports.

This in logics should boil down to a fix which will look like below:

Actual CPU temp = Current mobo CPU temp - X


X stands for the different between the incorrect tempreture reading and what it really is.

At 70C reading in fact the CPU temp might be 48C so that would be its 22C out of range. Thus a new BIOS would go and do a -22C before displaying the result as final.
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Old 23rd April, 2002, 09:45 PM
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My concern is with CPU throttling. I'm suspicious that this may be happening but yet to prove in software, yet.

Not sure if Intel use the Epox reading to throttle at 70 degc or not only internal.

Others also think this throttling is happening but I have yet to prove it. Things do seem to slow down as it gets to 70 degc. But, my impression is hardly scientific enough, I need to test.

Nice if Epox Tech could confirm.
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Old 23rd April, 2002, 09:51 PM
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Well one thing is for sure, on the 4BDA2+ I could overclock to 2.7GHz fine. On the 4SDA+ I cannot go above 2.55GHz OR I cannot run at 2.2GHz with a Vcore of 1.85V as soon the CPU heats up and the the system locks up or will not boot.

It's not the CPU or RAM or AGP card, The BIOS CPU tempreture is misleading the P4 into a power saving mode to prevent being burned when in fact it isn't going to be burned due to an incorrect CPU temp BIOS reading.
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Old 24th April, 2002, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bobbin01
My concern is with CPU throttling. I'm suspicious that this may be happening but yet to prove in software, yet.

Not sure if Intel use the Epox reading to throttle at 70 degc or not only internal.

Others also think this throttling is happening but I have yet to prove it. Things do seem to slow down as it gets to 70 degc. But, my impression is hardly scientific enough, I need to test.

Nice if Epox Tech could confirm.
Like I said before if somebody did a trawl of intels technical documentation maybee you would find out.

Unless somebody out there is holding out on us.

It seems odd to me that intel would rely on the motherboard to initiate throttling, dropping the multiplyer onboard seems the logical choice. Although i might be taking an over symplistic view of how it works.
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Old 24th April, 2002, 03:13 AM
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The P4 has a seperate internal diode located in a different section of the silicon dedicated to controlling the CPU throttling. The chipset and motherboard do not(can not) monitor this diode, further they do not tell the CPU when to throttle, they simply program the point at which the CPU should throttle itself during CPU initialization. This issue if there is in fact one(I have no P4 or 4SDA motherboard) may very well be an Intel issue, rather than an EPoX or SiS issue . . .
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Last edited by dimmreaper; 24th April, 2002 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 24th April, 2002, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dimmreaper
The P4 has a seperate internal diode located in a different section of the silicon dedicated to controlling the CPU throttling. The chipset and motherboard do not(can not) monitor this diode, further they do not tell the CPU when to throttle, they simply program the point at which the CPU should throttle itself during CPU initialization. This issue if there is in fact one(I have no P4 or 4SDA motherboard) may very well be an Intel issue, rather than an EPoX or SiS issue . . .
That was what I thought.

Has nobody had any overclocking success with this board ?

Or is there something they are doing that you guys arnt ?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 24th April, 2002, 07:36 AM
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Well I did a little trolling over at the Intel site as Holst suggested and I found the data sheet if anyone's intrested.
Check out page 90 & 91
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Old 24th April, 2002, 03:31 PM
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Nice find toolman.

Just a few quotes.

Quote:
Thermal Diode
The Pentium 4 processor with 512-KB L2 cache on 0.13 micron process incorporates an
on-die thermal diode. A thermal sensor located on the system board may monitor the die
temperature of the processor for thermal management/long term die temperature change
purposes. Table 39 and Table 40 provide the diode parameter and interface specifications.
This thermal diode is separate from the Thermal Monitor’s thermal sensor and cannot be
used to predict the behavior of the Thermal Monitor.
So the manboard uses a diferent diode.

It MIGHT be possible to disable the CPU throttleing, if somebody with more knoledge than me can interpret the below quote you might be onto something.


Quote:
the TCC will activate only when the internal die temperature is at very near the
temperature limits of the processor. When the TCC is enabled, and a high temperature
situation exists (i.e. TCC is active), the clocks will be modulated by alternately turning the
clocks off and on at a duty cycle specific to the processor (typically 30-50%). Cycle times
are processor speed dependent and will decrease linearly as processor core frequencies
increase. Once the temperature has returned to a non-critical level, modulation ceases
and TCC goes inactive. A small amount of hysteresis has been included to prevent rapid
active/inactive transitions of the TCC when the processor temperature is near the trip
point. Processor performance will be decreased by approximately the same amount as
the duty cycle when the TCC is active, however, with a properly designed and
characterized thermal solution, the TCC will only be activated briefly when running the
most power intensive applications in a high ambient temperature environment.
For automatic mode, the duty cycle is factory configured and cannot be modified. Also,
automatic mode does not require any additional hardware, software drivers or interrupt
handling routines.
The TCC may also be activated via On-Demand mode. If bit 4 of the ACPI Thermal
Monitor Control Register is written to a “1” the TCC will be activated immediately,
independent of the processor temperature. When using On-Demand mode to activate the
TCC, the duty cycle of the clock modulation is programmable via bits 3:1 of the same
ACPI Thermal Monitor Control Register. In automatic mode, the duty cycle is fixed,
however in On-Demand mode, the duty cycle can be programmed from 12.5% on/ 87.5%
off, to 87.5% on/12.5% off in 12.5% increments. On-Demand mode may be used at the
same time Automatic mode is enabled, however, if the system tries to enable the TCC via
On-Demand mode at the same time automatic mode is enabled AND a high temperature
condition exists, the duty cycle of the automatic mode will override the duty cycle selected
by the On-Demand mode.
An external signal, PROCHOT# (processor hot) is asserted when the processor detects
that its temperature is at the thermal trip point. Bus snooping and interrupt latching are
also active while the TCC is active. The temperature at which the thermal control circuit
activates is not user configurable and is not software visible.
Besides the thermal sensor and TCC, the Thermal Monitor feature also includes one
ACPI register, performance monitoring logic, bits in three model specific registers (MSR),
and one I/O pin (PROCHOT#). All are available to monitor and control the state of the
Thermal Monitor feature. Thermal Monitor can be configured to generate an interrupt
upon the assertion or de-assertion of PROCHOT#.
If automatic mode is disabled the processor will be operating out of specification.
Regardless of enabling of the automatic or On-Demand modes, in the event of a
catastrophic cooling failure, the processor will automatically shut down when the silicon
has reached a temperature of approximately 135 °C. At this point the system bus signal
THERMTRIP# will go active and stay active until RESET# has been initiated.
THERMTRIP# activation is independent of processor activity and does not generate any
bus cycles. If THERMTRIP# is asserted, processor core voltage (VCC) must be removed
within the timeframe defined in Table 19.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 24th April, 2002, 04:03 PM
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Even if I or anyone else intepret the text extract above it's still down to Epox to implement it. I cannot see them doing that as no EPOX TECH has been replied to this thread.
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Old 24th April, 2002, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holst
Has nobody had any overclocking success with this board ?
I've got my 1.8A Northwood at 2450MHz BUT after random amounts of time (sometimes 10 mins then others after 24hours+) my system will restart with absolutely no warning. This can happen when i'm doing nothing or when under heavy load.

Overall i am fairly pleased with my EP-4SDA+, but EpoX need to address the temperature issue or it will be my last EpoX motherboard.

If only i could get my Northwood running at 2500MHz stable 24/7........
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Old 24th April, 2002, 06:22 PM
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Well it's only a matter of EPOX wanting to fix the BIOS.
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Old 27th April, 2002, 07:42 AM
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I have used wcpuid in real mode (updates the cpu speed every second) and have been unable to find any evidence of cpu trottling happening with the cpu reading 60c+ in mbm.

Maybe someone else who gets even higher readings can try this method. It's under the tweaks section in wcpuid.

I have been able to use 1.90v and boot fine but my cpu is not the best overclocker as I can't get it past 2550 stable.
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Old 27th April, 2002, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GFORCE100
Even if I or anyone else intepret the text extract above it's still down to Epox to implement it. I cannot see them doing that as no EPOX TECH has been replied to this thread.
there is only one ET and he has other priorities, like the job he is payed for. he is here on his own time as i understand it. so give the guy a break. he will reply if and when he can.
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