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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 06:04 AM
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They say.... that you can just turn off turbo and Speed step and OC the Multiplyers... I may give that a shot tomorrow, seems like if this was a good solution I'd have found more on the topic...?
This is what I tried to get you to do ages ago, but I thought you said it couldn't be done Have you figured out the settings to do it?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 10:43 AM
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This is my understanding of how things stand at the moment.

The "base clock" (BCLK) is what's left of the FSB. It doesn't seem like you can actually adjust it too much any more (although you're welcome to try).

Multipliers aren't like they used to be. Once upon a time, there was just one multiplier for the whole chip, and it ran at the FSB multiplied by the multipliers. You knew that the chip was always running at that multiplier.

These days, what used to be the Northbridge is integrated onboard the CPU. So, you have about ten different multipliers on the CPU. Some of these include:
  • Quick Path Connect
  • Memory
  • Uncore logic (What used to be northbridge really)
  • CPU cores (four in your case)

Of those, you really only want to mess with the memory and CPU cores. Note that I said "cores". That's right, each CPU core has it's own independent multiplier, rather than one centrally set one. If you want to check this, load up one or two CPU cores and watch the results in i7z. You'll see that those two cores will change multiplier up, and the other two will idle at a much lower speed.

Anyhow, you've probably got the picture that each core has it's own multiplier that can be adjusted. Why is this? It's mostly about power dissipation. Basically, if you ran each and every core as fast as you could possibly make it go, you'd blow the power dissipation budget of the CPU, and overheat each core.

Let me try to explain this a different way. Imagine you've got four engines, but they share one cooling system. Some stuff you do only needs one or two engines to run (single threaded or limited threading). Some stuff you do needs all four engines to run (multi threaded or several processes). You can redline one of the engines quite happily with the radiator you have. However, if you redline all four engines at the same time, the cooling system can't cope with all the heat. That's what the idea behind turbo is - when you're running a single threaded app, allow a core or two to run overclocked by default.

Now, your CPU cores are the engines. The cooling system is the cooling system you have in your computer, and includes the junction between the CPU silicon and the metal plate on top of the CPU as well as between CPU and the waterblock/heatsink you have.

However, you can disable speedstep/turbo, and then you need to use the CPU ratio to set the multiplier as you would have done in the past. I'd expect higher temperatures when under partial load though. Under full load, it shouldn't make any difference.
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Old 30th July, 2012, 02:33 PM
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I am beginning to see how things have changed with i7. Overclocking is basically a dying art.

Question: if the base clock isn't really adjustable, how does one get the memory to run at overclocked speeds? I mean, in the past, we would lower the multi, and push the FSB to force the memory over default spec. Now what?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 04:09 PM
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The chip is already overclocking itself (turbo boost). Best way to kill overclocking is to make it happen automatically out of the box.

You can change the base clock - what I've seen is people reporting that between 3% and 6% out of spec starts stopping things working. Effectively you're overclocking everything.
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Old 30th July, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ThunderRd View Post
This is what I tried to get you to do ages ago, but I thought you said it couldn't be done Have you figured out the settings to do it?
I think so, Just have to try and see.

I remembered why I though more load line would fix my freeze up, (couldn't remember last time we spoke!)....When it went down all I could do is power button off and reboot. BUT! when I came back up I noticed that Folding was just loading a new unit. So tI froze just as Folding completed its task... The Hallmark of a low load line setting....as I understand it...which is a flaky kind of understanding at best! ":O}

I do want to try a stright up OC, but I'm not real optumistic. Intel put a lot into this new way of doing things and No One seems to be using "The old ways".

But hidden tresures are rarely found under one's bed, we must go out and look for them...

I take it this is you saying get er done? ":O}
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Old 30th July, 2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
The chip is already overclocking itself (turbo boost). Best way to kill overclocking is to make it happen automatically out of the box.

You can change the base clock - what I've seen is people reporting that between 3% and 6% out of spec starts stopping things working. Effectively you're overclocking everything.
I spent a bunch of time playing with BLCK yesterday.

Dropping back to 4800 or 4900 and picking it up again by upping the BLCK. 104.4 was the highest I could get off the 100 BLCK. Can't say if there's any performance difference, temps stay the same...Really didn't see any advantage to this approach.

Oh! at 104.0, No mouse, no keyboard and I suspect flaky hard drives, at 105, no boot, just gets lost in null space and hangs with the monitor in blackness.

You may have noticed " Bus clock frequency (BCLK) 100.12 MHz" in my Terminal?

The ".01" is to get me 4800 and 5000 in the read out. other wise for some reason you get 4799 or 4999... Oh! Ask not why of me! LOL
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 05:19 PM
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On Overclocking...My thoughts of the day...

If Intel is stupid, she will in the next gen automate overclocking out of existence. You buy a Computer, you turn it on and it asks you how fast you want to go today, you select the power/speed ratio you need today and go, Ecological and supremely efficient, a thing of beauty really.

But you've reduced the consumer to buying the top limit the feel they need. We know hardware is no longer "Need" driven. I have more power than I will ever use...ever.

I have so much power I have to give it to Folding to justify having it! Just to see it being used!! I'm already running at 100 %, before I turn on my monitor in the morning
This is not "need". This does not have "the shape" of a need driven market.

This is DESIRE! Fueled by MS and Intel PR. Remember the "Faster internet Chips"?

This whole Asus/Intel Z77 is the overclocking future and they intend to make mega bucks by NOT automating it.At lest not completely.

I think they will be smart and continue down a two fold path. Right now (Now that understanding has limped awkwardly to my door) I can hit a single button in the BIOs and get 43-46. I don't have to know anything but where that button is.

Well I have to know that others are getting 5.0 from the same gear...if I care and many do....That puts us in Hobbyist territory. I have to be honest here....My monkey brain delights in the knowledge that I haven't seen any one run this chip even close to as cool as I am....The fact that I just got lucky? Well it is a monkey brain and it's delights are not always rational! ":O}

My point, if I have one, is that I don't think they will kill a cash cow...but as always, I could be wrong!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
I take it this is you saying get er done? ":O}
On the contrary, if I'm understanding correctly, you are fine as you are. Remember that I wanted you to do this when we were not sure if your CPU was working as it should. Now that we know it is, it's no longer necessary.

Sadly, the enthusiast market won't be sated by this new 'methodology'. By that I mean those of us that are doing this out of enjoyment of the hobby aspect have lost a lot of what made it fun.

I wonder how long I can keep these high-end 775 boxes going. Hmm. At least they are more fun.
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Old 30th July, 2012, 05:32 PM
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Oh! at 104.0, No mouse, no keyboard and I suspect flaky hard drives, at 105, no boot, just gets lost in null space and hangs with the monitor in blackness.
Yeah - like I said, you're overclocking everything, including PCI-E, USB, SATA etc. No surprise that things break quickly. At most, you're talking another 150MHz or so, so really only a 3% increase in clock at a high risk of data corruption.
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Old 30th July, 2012, 05:38 PM
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If Intel is stupid, she will in the next gen automate overclocking out of existence. You buy a Computer, you turn it on and it asks you how fast you want to go today, you select the power/speed ratio you need today and go, Ecological and supremely efficient, a thing of beauty really.
Au contraire! If Intel is clever, they will automate overclocking out of existence. Each and every box will be able to overclock itself safely. No dead processors, just the maximum performance out of your PC with minimum power consumption (dependant on processor load). You don't even need to set any power/speed ratio - it'll match itself to the tasks you're doing.

The only sales point will be the maximum speed of the processor. You pay for the binning - a processor that costs more can go faster. That's back where we came from originally, right?
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Old 30th July, 2012, 05:51 PM
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Sorry guys, I went down in the middle of my last post! (How humiliating! LOL)

Shaving the V-core to close I suspect... Please re-read my last post as I respond to yours"::OO::" ( Look it's me in my glasses!)
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Old 30th July, 2012, 06:26 PM
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On the contrary, if I'm understanding correctly, you are fine as you are. Remember that I wanted you to do this when we were not sure if your CPU was working as it should. Now that we know it is, it's no longer necessary.

Sadly, the enthusiast market won't be sated by this new 'methodology'. By that I mean those of us that are doing this out of enjoyment of the hobby aspect have lost a lot of what made it fun.

I wonder how long I can keep these high-end 775 boxes going. Hmm. At least they are more fun.
Lighten up Dude! LOL

I'm actually have as much fun with this as I have with any other board.

(Maybe my season in hardware hell helps me to appreciate a box that simply boots! ":O}

What we had is gone. Let us give a heart-felt moment to those things that helped us on our way.

We leave greatness in Computer technology in our wake. I look at some of my cast off parts and want to cry! The waste!! They are still good! They can do amazing things!!

But time has come between us and new parts arrive. They don't have the same look or feel to them as they are shaped to fit the new day that dawns.

You will have true affection for these boards as you have always had affection for these things. You will put your mark upon them as you have every piece of hardware you tuned beyond your need into your desire...

I'm here in the middle of the stream. I know the water that's gone by and my thoughts linger, it took me so long to learn the little I know, it hurts to think of never "Doing it" again.

But my feet are forced by the waters coming to seek anew for my footing and as my stance changes, the new come into better focus...

The battle is still being fought on the thermal field. We still want everything our knowledge of cooling, voltages and floating multipliers will allow...We still never quite get it the way we want, but we still mostly do!

Nobody has more reason to fear or regret change than I. You know how slow this comes to me. But honestly, now that the tears have past, I couldn't go back, the new is just offering me to much.

If you think this is easy.. it may well be for you. For me, it was as hard as anything I've done in Computing. My satisfaction is real. I had to achieve something to be here at 5.0...OK my Chip had to achieve something, but my chip doesn't have a monkey brain and doesn't mind if I do....see how that works? ":O}

Please you've hurt no feelings here. I do understand that your knowledge is far more complete than mine. That you leave behind more than I.

Probably we will each have to go though this transition kicking and screaming.

I'm just saying that when the tears dry...you might be pleasantly surprised at the capabilities you've gained.
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Old 30th July, 2012, 06:56 PM
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Au contraire! If Intel is clever, they will automate overclocking out of existence. Each and every box will be able to overclock itself safely. No dead processors, just the maximum performance out of your PC with minimum power consumption (dependant on processor load). You don't even need to set any power/speed ratio - it'll match itself to the tasks you're doing.

The only sales point will be the maximum speed of the processor. You pay for the binning - a processor that costs more can go faster. That's back where we came from originally, right?
But if they do that, who will buy Koolance, Who will buy LEDs to light up their cases?

I know how busy you guys are, but if you find the time watch one of the "Singularly Computers" Videos.

The market place that's grown up around OCing astonishes me. Not just the sparkles and bobbles, very polished high-tech gear, like we never seen before.

Intel has an interest in cultivating enthusiasm. Only children brag about what they can buy. Adults want to brag about what they can do...(Always with the monkey brain!!)

I hope they have the wisdom not to kill our enthusiasm. Without Overclocking they are just selling toasters and ovens. Who cares fast they make toast?

"Just buy a good one Dear".

But with us around, ...Well WE bring the fetish!! LOL

We brought all those fancy computer cases, Air and water coolers, Super RAM and super fast hard drives into existence.

Were the ones who ignore the $500 PC and spend three to thirty times that so we can build "Something I can be proud of".

I paid Intel, not the retailer, an extra $20 above the cost of the 2600 to get the "K" chip...This is what I see as Intel's "new beginning"

On the one hand, as you say, sell top bin. for top dollar
On the other, sell top overclocking chips, at a premium.
*
One more consideration....AMD, not much competition there right now. But remember how AMD Unlocked chips and made a place for herself?

Overclockers turned to AMD once, might again...if they need to get the challenge they desire. I think Intel understands that the Overclocking market is about the challenge.

Yes they've made some things easier by far. But they have also placed new capabilities in our hands as well. The Test samples of my 2600K...well Some were running them at 140 BLCK... that of course changed for the general release.

Image having that kind of FSB and multipliers unlocked, you could go anywhere you needed to find your O/C with the gear you have.

"I'm told" that I can drop speed step and Turbo, and just go for the throat. As I run Folding, it probably won't affect me much. But If I didn't, I'd be burning juice to say I can, whether I needed it or not...now that there's a option to fluctuate speed with need, second by micro second....doesn't that seem horribly wasteful?

So I foresee ( Isn't that wonderfully pretentious sounding!) Chips coming available that offer extensive O/Cing with BLCK, multipliers and Turbo options, possibly in any combo.

I forsee Intel/Asus/MS/Anyonne who can get on that train will milk the O/C cash cow for all it's worth. Since I started Swiftech, Koolance and dozens of others have made millions out of O/Cing...Now Intel has a thumb in the pie as well. Intel can make money out of us....So I think they will or they might have to watch AMD make that money instend...again.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 30th July, 2012, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ThunderRd View Post
On the contrary, if I'm understanding correctly, you are fine as you are. Remember that I wanted you to do this when we were not sure if your CPU was working as it should. Now that we know it is, it's no longer necessary.

Sadly, the enthusiast market won't be sated by this new 'methodology'. By that I mean those of us that are doing this out of enjoyment of the hobby aspect have lost a lot of what made it fun.

I wonder how long I can keep these high-end 775 boxes going. Hmm. At least they are more fun.
Hey! If there's any little thing I can do! If you have a setting or setup you would like to see the results of.... I'm only to happy to oblige! The lest I can do for all the support and help.

In the BIOS there are two sets settings that look like you can do this, I'll have to mess about with discovery... as I've mentioned, A guy I kinda trust on these things says you can...he doesn't and I haven't found any one who actually does.

Honestly, this does seem like a better way of overclocking. I"feel" more in control of just about every aspect and have much better reporting... And I don't use Asus software... They've poured a pile of money into desktop control.

I don't know how well the software works, but if it does work....real time adjustments to just about everything found in the O/C section of the BIOS
. To Easy? Perhaps... but it also opens a fine tuning that's been simply beyond our reach.

For me the process is the same as it ever was. Make small changes and reboot, do this until you can't stand another re-boot today or you realize what you want isn't in the cards. (95% of my time is spent after I get what a reasonable man would be happy with.)

Mostly the quite repitition without real hope of success calms and soothes me. How strange is that! ":O}

It's the same Piano, just a new song...
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Old 30th July, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Another story in pictures... I did not turn off Turbo, it gets turned of by entering your multiplier. It also takes away your ability to set cores individually and you can no longer change Multaplyers in Tweak, this must now be done in Advanced under CPU power management, as shown. I left speed step on as you can see in the last two desktop pics....

As you ponder these data scapes I shall be off mashing speed step's toes, If I make it back, I'll bring more pictures! Oh! before I re-boot, I let her heat up a bit....seems to be running 4-5 degrees warmer than my 4800 Turbo setting.

Also I left all other settings the same, only Entered my Multiple in CPU Power Man.
Attached Thumbnails
Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-120730201857.bmp   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-120730201911.bmp   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-120730201929.bmp   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-120730202058.bmp   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-120730202110.bmp  

Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-screenshot-2012-07-30-13-24   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-screenshot-2012-07-30-13-25   Before I get carried away upon a data stream of shear delight...HELP!-screenshot-2012-07-30-13-41  
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Old 30th July, 2012, 10:16 PM
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hmmmm.....seems that the multiplier is locked....oh the implications rebound!

The Cpu ratio will accept my input but is limited to a max multiplier set by Intel...

the first pic shows reporting with Folding paused, second with it active....Notice the cores seem disorganized with nothing to do, but snap to stock speck under load.

So no joy in a straight up O/C...as far as I can tell.. So I bought an unlocked Turbo rather than an unlocked chip?
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Old 31st July, 2012, 12:37 AM
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Wait! I misinterpreted the experience! Turbo off and the system will still go to the multiplier limit I set, but of course it also clocks you down at idle.

*It's speed step in off position that produces the stock multiplier limitation as it goes neither up nor down in speed, it also Locks" all cores togdether.
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Old 31st July, 2012, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
*It's speed step in off position that produces the stock multiplier limitation as it goes neither up nor down in speed, it also Locks" all cores together.
Right. I would think that turning off Speedstep and Turbo would prevent the system from regulating the CPU in either direction.

But it doesn't seem to allow any appreciable gain, since the CPU is actually able to do the same thing without user interaction.
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Old 31st July, 2012, 06:11 PM
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It really does seems a package deal, Turbo and Speed step will be with us for a while. It's totally intergarted into how this Chip get the job done.

I just wish you could "feel" how this setup runs...I'm sorry, I know you have good reason to be aprehensive and you may not be as easy to please as I have been.

But this set up, for all the pain of getting here, has earned my affection...":O}

"Don't fear the Reaper" LOL
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Old 1st August, 2012, 07:17 AM
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Apprehensive is a word that doesn't exist in my vocabulary, so I'm not afraid of the new generation. I just somehow feel that I may miss the tinkering we've always had to do to get things to be 'just right'.

Engineers are made of a certain 'stuff'. We don't normally like things to happen 'automatically', and we like to have control over the things that can be adjusted.

That being said, I'm sure that curious people will find ways to push the envelope no matter how automatic things seem to be.
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