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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 07:37 PM
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I am not trying to annoy you guys but with Windows Vista or Windows 7 all this things are in the past. Click and enjoy !
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 07:46 PM
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It appears that you accidently copied one line twice. You shouldn't have had to copy the lines individually, but I think what happened was that I wasn't expecting the copy command to come back and prompt you for confirmation. That's ok, we can fix that.

su and run the following (you should be able to copy and paste all in one block):

Code:
echo y | cp /root/.bashrc /root/.bashrc.tmp
sed 's/^.*nv\.sh$//' < /root/.bashrc.tmp > /root/.bashrc
echo '[ `tty` = "/dev/tty2" ] && ./nv.sh' >>/root/.bashrc
cat /root/.bashrc
Paste back the results.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbard View Post
I am not trying to annoy you guys but with Windows Vista or Windows 7 all this things are in the past. Click and enjoy !
Why thank you partner, that's mighty MS of you! ":O}
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
It appears that you accidently copied one line twice. You shouldn't have had to copy the lines individually, but I think what happened was that I wasn't expecting the copy command to come back and prompt you for confirmation. That's ok, we can fix that.

su and run the following (you should be able to copy and paste all in one block):

Code:
echo y | cp /root/.bashrc /root/.bashrc.tmp
sed 's/^.*nv\.sh$//' < /root/.bashrc.tmp > /root/.bashrc
echo '[ `tty` = "/dev/tty2" ] && ./nv.sh' >>/root/.bashrc
cat /root/.bashrc
Paste back the results.
[Daniel@localhost ~]$ su
Password:
[root@localhost Daniel]# echo y | cp /root/.bashrc /root/.bashrc.tmp
[root@localhost Daniel]# sed 's/^.*nv\.sh$//' < /root/.bashrc.tmp > /root/.bashrc
[root@localhost Daniel]# echo '[ `tty` = "/dev/tty2" ] && ./nv.sh' >>/root/.bashrc
[root@localhost Daniel]# cat /root/.bashrc
# .bashrc

# User specific aliases and functions

alias rm='rm -i'
alias cp='cp -i'
alias mv='mv -i'

# Source global definitions
if [ -f /etc/bashrc ]; then
. /etc/bashrc
fi


[ `tty` = "/dev/tty3" ] && ./nv-remove.sh
[ `tty` = "/dev/tty2" ] && ./nv.sh
[root@localhost Daniel]#



How do I know when I have to enter line by line and when I can copy in one block...PLEASE!!! ":O}
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 13th December, 2009 at 07:50 PM.
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccperf721p View Post
I also find it tiresome that when there is nothing substantial to offer it relies on philosophy and half-assed, unfinished rehashes just to keep people interested.
I agree that programmer vanity seems to account for a lot of the different paths, failed or abandoned projects and general "herd of cats" appearance of the Linux effort, but I don't think this necessarily applies to graphics drivers.

X11 is now 23 years old. It had a huge overhaul moving from X11R6 to the present X.org v7 which did a lot to fix its more stupid problems, and it's still under very active development to bring to users all the features that they see in Macs and W7 PCs. xorg-server is now up at 1.7.5: the ATi driver still only builds cleanly against the year-old 1.7.0. And then only grudgingly. To get the ATi binary blob to work, I have to enable some seriously old code in the kernel for PCI bus scanning, that I wouldn't normally bother with. When it starts, the log file is full of warnings about broken ABIs and unknown system calls. Getting a desktop out of it is something of a miracle.

Oh, and it breaks every time I even sneeze near /usr/src/linux.

So reverse-engineering drivers and creating a licence-free alternative might be programmer vanity, but if it squeezes more performance out of my laptop's meagre card (as it seems to do), builds cleanly and starts reliably every time, then I for one welcome it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccperf721p View Post
One example I find is consolekit vs hal. Hal will be deprecated in favor of consolekit.
Sorry but HAL <> consolekit. HAL handles hardware hotplugging (try saying that when you're drunk) and is a bastard to write policies for. consolekit tracks users, sessions and seats and is a bastard to set up.

Probably a better example would be the complete mess made of KDE4.0 just because the programmers couldn't wait to get it "out there"...
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 08:01 PM
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Eh, there's no easy way to figure that out, because it depends on a lot of variables.

In general, all of the commands I've given you should be able to be copied in an entire block, just as I have given them to you. When copying them as a block doesn't work, it's because something happened that I hadn't foreseen.

Anyway, all looks well.

Reboot and make sure that everything comes back up the way it should. If it does, then press

CTRL-ALT-F2

After a few seconds, you'll see a login prompt. Use root for the username, and give your root password. You should then see some drive activity, and after a few minutes (not more than 5, and probably much less), you should see the system reboot. When you come back up, you should have the nVidia drivers installed, which you can confirm by going to the 'System' menu, selecting 'Preferences' and finding the 'Nvidia X Server Settings' menu.
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 08:05 PM
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Ok, but first I want to read Kaitain's post...in case I'll be away for a while...LOL
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccperf721p View Post
It is too much work, if I want a completely license free system I'll decide that for myself. RedHat is far too busy pushing their philosophy on it's users.
TBH, this isn't entirely a Redhat problem, and I actually think RH are doing a good job of walking the tightrope they are on.

Lookit, we all need to eat, right? Is it so very wrong for RH to say "We'll give you all this stuff for free, and we'll even make an effort to try to make it simple for you to set up, but if you need help RIGHT NOW, you're going to have to pay for it"?

I mean, I CAN get support, even from RH employees, for free. It's called the forums and the mailing lists. It's just that if I want support on MY timetable, I'm gonna have to pay someone for their time.

However, to the philosophy point:
RH actually have some kernel devs on their payroll, I believe. Those guys are quite adamant about the 'no closed source stuff' philosophy. If you don't believe me, just research what happened to Kororra. So I think RH are doing the best they can under the conditions they are working with.
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
Eh, there's no easy way to figure that out, because it depends on a lot of variables.

In general, all of the commands I've given you should be able to be copied in an entire block, just as I have given them to you. When copying them as a block doesn't work, it's because something happened that I hadn't foreseen.

Anyway, all looks well.

Reboot and make sure that everything comes back up the way it should. If it does, then press

CTRL-ALT-F2

After a few seconds, you'll see a login prompt. Use root for the username, and give your root password. You should then see some drive activity, and after a few minutes (not more than 5, and probably much less), you should see the system reboot. When you come back up, you should have the nVidia drivers installed, which you can confirm by going to the 'System' menu, selecting 'Preferences' and finding the 'Nvidia X Server Settings' menu.
Before I try it:

First the good news:

I'M BACK UP!!

Now the ODD news:

It completely dumped the Fedora 12 Start-up Cam shaped oval and reverted to the White and blue progress bar at the bottom of the start up page of Fedora 11. BUT is does say Fedora 12!

Going to try it now...":O}
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  #150 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 08:45 PM
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When I hit CTRL-ALT-F2 the screen went black for a brief instant the the lower 3/4 of the screen was covered by thin (1/4 inch) blue vertical lines, then it sat there, I gave it plenty of time (10 mins) but it just sat there, no log on. I hit the off button and then re-booted fine, no Nvidia in my menus.
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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 09:09 PM
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I tried moving the drive off my IDE card and onto my "Marvel IDE" as sometimes Marvel stalls my boot if no drive is connected to it, but no change... Did find out that after waiting you can press CTRL-ALT-F1 and it goes back to desktop, but desktop is frozen and needs a re-boot.
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitain View Post
I agree that programmer vanity seems to account for a lot of the different paths, failed or abandoned projects and general "herd of cats" appearance of the Linux effort, but I don't think this necessarily applies to graphics drivers.

X11 is now 23 years old. It had a huge overhaul moving from X11R6 to the present X.org v7 which did a lot to fix its more stupid problems, and it's still under very active development to bring to users all the features that they see in Macs and W7 PCs. xorg-server is now up at 1.7.5: the ATi driver still only builds cleanly against the year-old 1.7.0. And then only grudgingly. To get the ATi binary blob to work, I have to enable some seriously old code in the kernel for PCI bus scanning, that I wouldn't normally bother with. When it starts, the log file is full of warnings about broken ABIs and unknown system calls. Getting a desktop out of it is something of a miracle.

Oh, and it breaks every time I even sneeze near /usr/src/linux.

So reverse-engineering drivers and creating a licence-free alternative might be programmer vanity, but if it squeezes more performance out of my laptop's meagre card (as it seems to do), builds cleanly and starts reliably every time, then I for one welcome it.

Sorry but HAL <> consolekit. HAL handles hardware hotplugging (try saying that when you're drunk) and is a bastard to write policies for. consolekit tracks users, sessions and seats and is a bastard to set up.

Probably a better example would be the complete mess made of KDE4.0 just because the programmers couldn't wait to get it "out there"...

What I don't get is this:

Drivers are a part of a piece of hardware as such I consider them to be a thing apart, not software but a software connection to a given piece of hardware. When I buy hardware I buy that connection to make the hardware work.

WHY SHOULD open source waste time when the hardware manufacture has already provided me with, what will in all probability, remain the best driver solution. Mint has breezed past fedora in usability and I think, that not wasting time on drivers that are available for FREE (once you buy the hardware.) is probably a big part of the reason why.

Looking back, Drivers were what held me up in adopting Linux, only when Fedora started to make installing drivers less of a pain was someone able to guide me through the process. Mint 7 gave me independence from a mount of notes and help on how to install, Mint has been MORE of a friend to me, by making drivers available.

Fedora as we see here, has taken a huge step backwards for the desktop users who just wants a quick install and a usable desktop FULLY powered by his hardware.

Naturally I just talking out of my butt when I go past "This is what I want" and start trying to say why I'm not getting it... but I think I can safely say "I'm not getting what I need from Fedora anymore". And going by what they SAY they are trying to do...this should worry them, cause I'm a Mint user now...":O}
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 13th December, 2009 at 09:46 PM.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 09:48 PM
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Gizmo! I have an idea! Why don't we take the rest of the day off, you can get to know your kids again! ":O}

I can back up Mint! ":O}

I case you just can't stay away I check back late this afternoon and help you in any way I can! LOL
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 13th December, 2009, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Drivers are a part of a piece of hardware as such I consider them to be a thing apart, not software but a software connection to a given piece of hardware. When I buy hardware I buy that connection to make the hardware work.
Well yes, but only at the point of sale. There's no profit in continuing to develop drivers for an already-released graphics card beyond the first couple of months (i.e. the bare minimum before people start demanding their money back).

I have long suspected, but have no evidence, that MS ensure it's in the hardware manufacturer's collective interests to continue supporting old hardware and keep improving their drivers. Somebody has to pay for what is essentially a loss-making activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
WHY SHOULD open source waste time when the hardware manufacture has already provided me with, what will in all probability, remain the best driver solution.
Ah, would that it were always the case. Apart from your nVidia card, not a single piece of hardware in your system has a manufacturer's driver. It's all open source, because nobody wanted to pay to develop a driver that they couldn't sell.

nVidia's driver is only as good as it is because they're obdurate in the extreme and refuse to use both Windows native Direct3D and Linux's own Mesa/DRI system as it is to simplify their drivers. They instead produce an enormous blob that includes a custom OpenGL implementation, custom renderer and so on. As it's mostly platform-independent, their Windows blob and Linux blob can be almost identical.

Most other graphics manufacturers (ATi, Intel etc) use the platform's native system, which should make the driver quicker and easier to produce as somebody else has provided the libraries and rendering engine. (Ultimately Mesa's extension/replacement, Gallium3D should take that to the extreme).

In ATi's case, this is where the binary blob serves them a disadvantage: X is developing at a pace: if ATi want to use it, they need to keep paying for development. No wonder they're passing patent-sanitised documents to the radeonhd and radeon projects...

Quote:
Originally Posted by D ~
It completely dumped the Fedora 12 Start-up Cam shaped oval and reverted to the White and blue progress bar at the bottom of the start up page of Fedora 11. BUT is does say Fedora 12!
Ah that would be because one of the features of kernel >=2.6.31 and the nouveau driver is Kernel Mode Setting (i.e. where the kernel learns to understand monitors and so sets the resolution and colour depth immediately on loading rather than only when X starts). You won't get that with the nvidia driver... ever.
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Last edited by Kaitain; 14th December, 2009 at 12:44 AM.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 14th December, 2009, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
When I hit CTRL-ALT-F2 the screen went black for a brief instant the the lower 3/4 of the screen was covered by thin (1/4 inch) blue vertical lines, then it sat there, I gave it plenty of time (10 mins) but it just sat there, no log on. I hit the off button and then re-booted fine, no Nvidia in my menus.
The only thing I can figure is possibly the one thing I didn't have you do, because my system works just fine without doing it. su and run the following code:

Code:
echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak /boot/grub/grub.conf
#now make a backup, in case it doesn't exist
echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak
#fix grub.conf to include nouveau.modeset=0 and vga=0x31B and rdblacklist=nouveau
#bearing in mind that they might already be there
sed 's/\(.*\)nouveau\.modeset[^ ]* \(.*\)/\1\2/' < /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak | sed 's/\(.*\)vga[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's/\(.*\)rdblacklist=nouveau[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's_[[:space:]]kernel /vmlinuz.*_& nouveau.modeset=0 vga=0x31B rdblacklist=nouveau_' > /boot/grub/grub.conf
cat grub.conf
Paste the results back here

Quote:
Gizmo! I have an idea! Why don't we take the rest of the day off, you can get to know your kids again! ":O}
LOL, actually, I've been busy with Mother, but that's sorted now.Wife seems reasonably happy too, for the moment.

Honestly, I don't know what gets into my wife sometimes. I mean, I let her clean my house, do my laundry, fix my meals, and raise my kids. And she thinks I ought to spend quality time with her TOO?!

Women are just soooooo unreasonable.......
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 14th December, 2009, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaitain View Post
Ah that would be because one of the features of kernel >=2.6.31 and the nouveau driver is Kernel Mode Setting (i.e. where the kernel learns to understand monitors and so sets the resolution and colour depth immediately on loading rather than only when X starts). You won't get that with the nvidia driver... ever.
Actually, it's because 1280x1024 8-bit mode is apparently regarded as a text mode rather than a graphics mode by the vesafb driver. It seems pretty much any 8-bit mode produces the same results.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 14th December, 2009, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
Actually, it's because 1280x1024 8-bit mode is apparently regarded as a text mode rather than a graphics mode by the vesafb driver. It seems pretty much any 8-bit mode produces the same results.
Not that I always wish to be argumentative, though it seems that way today, but the "White and blue progress bar at the bottom of the start up page of Fedora 11" is a graphical framebuffer boot from the initrd.

When you changed nouveau.modeset=1 to nouveau.modeset=0 you disabled KMS, thus nuking the oval. When KMS is disabled, the Fedora initrd script falls back to the old fbsplash code instead.

The scrolling text from a previous bootup attempt is text-based, though. See, I do read these things sometimes

I remember in the dim and distant past persuading D~ to let me ssh into his machine to set up nvidia drivers and TwinView.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 14th December, 2009, 03:11 AM
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Err......Kaitain? Although you're right, you're wrong.

I have nouveau.modeset=0 vga=0x37D on my laptop, and it boots the graphical oval just fine. I get the bar at the bottom only when I select an 8-bit color mode. If I select 16, 24, or 32 bit color resolutions, it boots the graphical oval. I tested this both at 1280x1024 and at my laptop's native resolution of 1920x1200.

The results are quite repeatable.
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Old 14th December, 2009, 06:31 AM
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Truth is, I really don't care if RH makes money with linux. I am just frustrated to the point of giving up, due to a few factors. Linux is not capable of doing much more for me than it was 6 years ago, yet it has become increasingly complex, larger, slower, and always changing. While I don't mind learning, I do get tired of putting in the time to learn something, only to have to learn more or something completely different to keep the same functionality. It's kind of waste of time to have to learn more to do the exact same thing I was doing a few days prior to the update. What linux truly lacks is a vision of what the end product will be.

It would be like me building an engine by just throwing random parts in a block, then hitting the key only to find out it doesn't do what I wanted it to do. Then repeating the same process over and over again with other randomly selected parts hoping for a desirable result.

In the end it won't much matter, I will have to move away from linux for the simple fact of needing a platform that will remain consistent for a few years at a time.
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Last edited by ccperf721p; 14th December, 2009 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 14th December, 2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
The only thing I can figure is possibly the one thing I didn't have you do, because my system works just fine without doing it. su and run the following code:

Code:
echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak /boot/grub/grub.conf
#now make a backup, in case it doesn't exist
echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak
#fix grub.conf to include nouveau.modeset=0 and vga=0x31B and rdblacklist=nouveau
#bearing in mind that they might already be there
sed 's/\(.*\)nouveau\.modeset[^ ]* \(.*\)/\1\2/' < /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak | sed 's/\(.*\)vga[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's/\(.*\)rdblacklist=nouveau[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's_[[:space:]]kernel /vmlinuz.*_& nouveau.modeset=0 vga=0x31B rdblacklist=nouveau_' > /boot/grub/grub.conf
cat grub.conf
Paste the results back here



LOL, actually, I've been busy with Mother, but that's sorted now.Wife seems reasonably happy too, for the moment.

Honestly, I don't know what gets into my wife sometimes. I mean, I let her clean my house, do my laundry, fix my meals, and raise my kids. And she thinks I ought to spend quality time with her TOO?!

Women are just soooooo unreasonable.......
Sorry I didn't make it back sooner...

[Daniel@localhost ~]$ su
Password:
[root@localhost Daniel]# echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak /boot/grub/grub.conf
cp: overwrite `/boot/grub/grub.conf'? [root@localhost Daniel]# #now make a backup, in case it doesn't exist
[root@localhost Daniel]# echo y | cp /boot/grub/grub.conf /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak
cp: overwrite `/boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak'? [root@localhost Daniel]# #fix grub1B and rdblacklist=nouveauodeset=0 and vga=0x3
[root@localhost Daniel]# #bearing in mind that they might already be there
[root@localhost Daniel]# sed 's/\(.*\)nouveau\.modeset[^ ]* \(.*\)/\1\2/' < /boot/grub/grub.conf.giz-bak | sed 's/\(.*\)vga[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's/\(.*\)rdblacklist=nouveau[^ ]*\(.*\)/\1\2/' | sed 's_[[:space:]]kernel /vmlinuz.*_& nouveau.modeset=0 vga=0x31B rdblacklist=nouveau_' > /boot/grub/grub.conf
[root@localhost Daniel]# cat grub.conf
cat: grub.conf: No such file or directory
[root@localhost Daniel]#
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