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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 2nd November, 2010, 07:10 PM
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Fedora 14 is now available for all

See front page:
Fedora 14 is now available for all

Comments?
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Old 2nd November, 2010, 07:14 PM
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I'll give it a try...
(Sorry Gizmo, Sorry Cliff!) ":O}
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Old 2nd November, 2010, 07:21 PM
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Just a thought, but you might want to install VirtualBox on your primary linux install. Give you a nice easy way to try out new stuff.
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Old 2nd November, 2010, 07:45 PM
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Thanks Cliff. But as I have an extra drive... and am afflicted by laziness...":O}
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 01:53 AM
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Holy Moses! Allready?
I didn't even get to install Fedora 13....
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Thanks Cliff. But as I have an extra drive... and am afflicted by laziness...":O}
I'm pretty lazy myself, I just wait until something comes out and then get a virtualbox image from someone.
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 05:55 PM
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So like....any one got the dope on installing Nvidia to F14?

Any help will be much appreciated! ":O}
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 07:43 PM
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Haven't messed with it yet, Daniel, but it should be pretty much the same as it was before. However I was compiling the drivers, not installing from the repo.
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 07:58 PM
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So Fedora has given up on Nvidia compatibility?
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Old 3rd November, 2010, 08:07 PM
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We've had this conversation before, Daniel.

Basically, nothing's changed. nVidia don't want to open source their drivers, and Redhat can't include anything in Fedora that isn't open source.

Last edited by Gizmo; 3rd November, 2010 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 4th November, 2010, 07:10 PM
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That's what I wanted to know...weather this was transitional or Fedora is getting out of the desktop business...":O}

May we always have Mint! BTW how come Mint can give me what I want and Fedora can't? Seems rather a self imposed exile from desktops that use Video hardware... yes?
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Old 4th November, 2010, 07:43 PM
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Redhat is a business. They sell support on their systems. Because of that, they have to tread a careful line that folks like Mint do not; specifically, Redhat have to toe the line on open source, or they lose the support of the open source community on whom they depend. The open source community adamantly DO NOT WANT PROPRIETARY DRIVERS.

For what it's worth, I think they are right. The only way for open source to move forward is to push folks like nVidia and AMD to develop truly open drivers. If they won't do that, then the open source community have to develop their own. It will take longer, and it won't have all the bells and whistles of the proprietary drivers, but at least it won't be encumbered by the agenda of a proprietary hardware company that doesn't give a rat's hindparts about open source, freedom, or you.

Isn't that what you want? Or has all your talk about linux been so much posturing and hot air?
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Old 4th November, 2010, 08:02 PM
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I want access by way of my OS to my hardware. But the question really is what am I willing to pay for it.

I payed for my hard ware, it wasn't free. With that hardware came drivers that are FREE to any who wish to download them.

It costs neither myself nor the "Linux community" a damn thing if I use those drivers and require that my OS to do so. I'll be more than happy to use open source when there IS an open source Driver.

Here's what Red Hat has developed... Da nadda..... if it can't run modern hardware.

What Red hat is saying is "I know your drowning but don't swim! The front stroke isn't open source and we don't have a back stroke ready in time to save you!

For that matter why should a hardware maker open source their drivers?

I think we can safely make a distinction between drivers and software, one easily seen and recognized by all.

As to you last comment....What can I say, draw your own conclusions.
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Old 4th November, 2010, 09:20 PM
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Err........you DO realize that drivers ARE in fact software, right?

Look, perhaps I was a bit harsh, but this is an issue that touches me deeply, because I am heavily involved in open source and becoming more so every day. If I was unfair, then I apologize.

That being said, Linux would NOT be even close to usable for you today if we simply used the proprietary drivers. nVidia's support of Linux is not bad as Linux goes, but it pales in comparison to Windows, and there are still significant gaps in nVidia's Linux support (case in point; suspend to disk HAS YET to reliably work on Linux).

The Linux community have offered a standing invitation to ANY hardware vendor: We'll sign an NDA. We'll do all the work to develop the driver, for FREE. In return, all you have to do is provide us with the necessary documentation to properly support your hardware.

Why should a vendor NOT take advantage of an opportunity like that?

At the heart of this argument of proprietary vs. open source is the realization that ultimately, this is about who will control the future of Linux, the users or the hardware vendors. Linux cannot exist without hardware on which to run, and run well. As long as Linux is beholden to those hardware vendors for its driver support, Linux is at the mercy of those hardware vendors. Make no mistake; Linux MUST have an open source driver for nVidia hardware. I'm sorry that it's not going as fast as you'd like, but few things in life do. If you'd like to help that effort, then I'd suggest that YOU put some pressure on nVidia (as a customer of nVidia and user of Linux) to work with the open source community to develop a good OPEN SOURCE driver.

Last edited by Gizmo; 4th November, 2010 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 5th November, 2010, 03:21 AM
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I should add a little to this. Several years ago, a guy called Chris Smart released Kororaa Linux to demo XGL. We actually hosted it here and several people got to try it out. What Chris did was he used the NVidia binary driver to showcase the 3D desktop potential of Linux.

The problem Chris had, was he was attacked for it, because he had violated the terms of the GPL in doing so, by including closed source, proprietary drivers in in the same package as GPL software. In the end, Chris Smart took the distribution down at the request of kernel developers.

Now that brings us to Linux Mint, which is free and community based. There is no big company to sue behind it at all.

One thing you need to understand is that when you use Linux Mint in the United States, you are breaking the law, and that legally and morally, you are not in a substantially different category than someone that has pirated a copy of Windows.

Linux Mint includes libdvdcss, which allows you to decrypt and watch DVDs on Linux, and violates the US DMCA. Now if you're using it for personal use, watching DVDs, then morally you're not doing anything illegal, and it is my strong belief that you have every right to do so. But the copyright industry does not share my view, and neither do US lawmakers.

Additionally Mint contains the W32codec pack, which is Microsoft owned code, that they never gave permission for redistribution of, and certainly gave no permission for its inclusion with GPL software. You're not paying any royalties, and you're depending on that code when you watch many videos under Mint.

Lastly there are the NVidia drivers. They are violating the GPL license, they know it, they don't care.

Now you're never going to be sued, and neither are the Mint guys, and its essentially a series of victim-less crimes committed for righteous reasons, but you, they, and everyone else need to see it for what it is, and understand that while the major distros may not be giving you what Mint are, they're not doing so out of laziness or incompetence, but rather out of self-preservation.
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Old 5th November, 2010, 03:42 AM
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Very interesting conversation....
I would rather all drivers be open source so any platform can use them. We all know that money is the problem. You create a product, people want it, you can make a lot of money from it. If you give it away, you sacrefice profit.

Honestly, some laws should never be made because we can break them since there is no way to enfore them.

I have all the same problems with video drivers in Fedora. Mostly because of my old video card and the fact that I want to play games. I starting to come to the realization that games will always be the handicap with Linux for me. So I use linux for my data server and because I'm an enthusist. Its fun to learn a new operating system that is free.
Its more of a fantasy to use Linux instead of Windows for all of my games.... that would be very nice
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Old 5th November, 2010, 05:15 AM
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I might as well throw my 2 cents in the mix as well.

Linux as an enterprise solution will always be strong, there is money to be made from doing at least that part of it correctly. As you add layers, the reasons for doing it and the return diminish rapidly, as does the quality of the end product.

The term software freedom is thrown around and used out of context way too often in the linux community. Software freedom only means you are free to change things because the source is available. Which is fine if you are actually capable of such a task, otherwise you are still at the mercy of a volunteer coder who decides what is best for you. Outside of the price tag it isn't much different than closed source to the average end user of desktop linux. I often hear that if they opened the source they could make the software better, but that just wouldn't be the linux way that I know so they are just tooting their own horn to gain followers.. The linux community can rise up all they want, but they have nothing to offer in return and aren't a threat to any manufacturer.

Principles and ideals are not always a good thing, the people that crash planes into buildings are doing it for a set of principles and ideals as well. Not good to be taken on ride by them either. You can only truly be free by living by your own set of principles and ideals, linux offers nothing in that way for most of us.

I've tried many open source alternatives to expensive purpose built solutions and have found it better to just spend the money and be done with it. After using the best linux had to offer and breaking two $300 bits, ( first one I thought was just a fluke) I learned my lesson.
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Old 5th November, 2010, 05:40 AM
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I will always use Linux because its fun to explore a new operating system. I have been able to gain experience as an enthusiast and open up new options for computers. I know it will never truly be an option for most home users, but I find it fascinating to learn for free.
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Old 5th November, 2010, 05:53 AM
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From both directions, ideally I'd like them to piss of and leave me alone, that includes the DMCA zealots telling me what to do, and the GPL zealots, but we life goes on. For my uses this is still a significantly better option than any other, and one that continues to improve.
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Old 5th November, 2010, 08:27 PM
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I use nothing else...

Using nothing else means I have stopped PC gaming. While gaming is RAPIDLY improving, my skills are limited, so I switched to PS3. But I look forward to gaming on PC again.

When the Linux community can provide me with a driver,

(yes a driver is a specific type of software CREATED by hardware makers, Not the open source community, that communicates between the OS and hardware Having created it they OWN it and can do with it as they like, they owe the open source community zip!)

that can run my games, I will most definitely try them.

Nvidia have every right to say no. Just I Said no to MS. Saying no to MS doesn't mean I said yes to everything "the Linux Community" might like me to.

I didn't make this world, I'm just trying to get though it without doing any harm.
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