Opera seeks tougher remedy in Microsoft case

[Daniel ~]

Written by Daniel
Friday, 14 December 2007
Company wants EC to force Microsoft to pre-load multiple browsers, not just IE, into Windows

By Paul Meller and James Niccolai, IDG News Service
December 14, 2007
InfoWorld

Microsoft was considered to have escaped lightly after the European Commission found it guilty in 2004 of bundling its media player software with Windows to the detriment of competition... Front Page

[ccperf721p]

I still can't quite grasp this. Of course MS bundles it's own media player and browser, so does just about every Linux distro out there.

It just seems in the battles that are being fought it really doesn't matter who wins, we lose.

[funnyperson1]

I think its absolutely ridiculous to force MS to bundle other browsers or remove IE.

However, they should be forced to adhere to Web standards, and I hope that part of it is pushed by the EU.

[Daniel ~]

It'a all about monopoly. It has been determined that due to it's position in the OS market (effective monopoly) that MS needs to be restrained for our own good. The proof of this assertion might be seen in how difficult it is to gain MS complyence with the law. At any given time, internationally there are dozens if not hundreds of lawsuits against MS trying to force her to obey the law.

[ccperf721p]

The way the argument is presented makes me think there is much more than meets the eye. Royalties come to mind..

[Daniel ~]

Well... none of these little darlings shows up at the ball without a dress they want to show off...":O}

[funnyperson1]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

It'a all about monopoly. It has been determined that due to it's position in the OS market (effective monopoly) that MS needs to be restrained for our own good. The proof of this assertion might be seen in how difficult it is to gain MS complyence with the law. At any given time, internationally there are dozens if not hundreds of lawsuits against MS trying to force her to obey the law.

I don't buy it, Microsoft does not in any way prevent people from installing Opera. There are only two reasons why people couldn't install and use Opera:
1) It doesn't offer them enough of an advantage over IE (or Firefox) to go through the trouble of getting it.
2) They don't know about it.

What it sounds like to me is that Opera wants Microsoft to do their advertising for them. Its brilliant, go crying to the EU and all of a sudden your product is on 95% of computers sold. If people don't know about your product, you tell them about it...thats how the free market works (of course calling the EU a free market is a bit of a stretch). That or you improve your product to the point that people actually want it.

Hell, they aren't even close to beating out Firefox, maybe they should work on getting to second before *****ing about how they are unfairly prevented from being first.

The standards compliance is an entirely different beast. If IE complies to all the standards then there wouldn't be IE only webpages. That is abuse of market position, but bundling IE with Windows in MS's right.

[Samuknow]

What they do prevent though, is using an alternative browser for installing updates. I am sure windows updates could use another browser to install updates they choose not to.

[ccperf721p]

Originally Posted by Samuknow

What they do prevent though, is using an alternative browser for installing updates. I am sure windows updates could use another browser to install updates they choose not to.

While I am not pro-MS and I understand what is being said, these petty cases set precedences in court that can be used later to attack any OS should they become mainstream. There are people lame enough out there that would use a Windows Update case to make a case against Debian, RedHat etc etc for their proprietary pre-installed update software as well.

I don't use Opera because it runs slow, it is not open source and obviously they have an agenda. I stick to firefox and Konqeror for my browsing needs..

[Samuknow]

I am a Firefox user my self. This is just a gripe and in now way is it enough of a pain for me to ever think MS should be sued over it.

[ccperf721p]

I understand Sam, not beating up on anyone.

Walmart, Google, Facebook etc all started out innocent enough, look what that got us. Everyone is trying to figure out just what it takes to get every last dollar out of our pockets. That requires knowledge of our interests, habits, personality, paygrade etc and they are putting it all together each and every day..

[Áedán]

Originally Posted by ccperf721p

There are people lame enough out there that would use a Windows Update case to make a case against Debian, RedHat etc etc for their proprietary pre-installed update software as well.

Except it's not proprietary per se. It is open source, and therefore is well documented (even if only in code) and open to all to use without royalities. Windows Update is none of these.

Windows Update is about the only reason that most people need IE on their machine... The standards issue is the biggest issue, and draws on Microsoft's typical embrace, extend and extinguish policy that they have had success with in so many areas.

[danrok]

Originally Posted by ccperf721p

I still can't quite grasp this. Of course MS bundles it's own media player and browser, so does just about every Linux distro out there.

It just seems in the battles that are being fought it really doesn't matter who wins, we lose.

This is how anti-competition laws work, certain activities only become illegal if the company is in a dominant position.

Businesses have to be regulated by laws. When MS breaks the law, their smaller competitors are well within their rights to have them held to account.

If the boot was on the other foot, MS would be doing the same.

MS likes to moan, and try to convince people that they're being hard done by. Despite being the most dominant player.

They know the law inside and out, it was their own choice to ignore it, not Opera's.

[ccperf721p]

I always felt it was better to have to worry about MS, one threat instead of many..

[Daniel ~]

One of the saddest experiences of my life was watching computing as a whole adopt the rapaciousness of MS. The need to gather every penny from every pocket rather than to help fill those pockets or improve their world.

The world has now split. Perhaps it always was. The divide is between those who will sell off anything to gain a bottom line and those who will pay anything to preserve this world... most are standing on the sidelines as the battles are being fought. Little knowing the outcome shall determine their fate...

[ccperf721p]

I've fought one battle or another my entire life. I'm not afraid of the fight, but following the "my enemies enemy is my friend" philosophy in matters like this don't appeal to me. Especially when I consider that all my enemies enemy wants is piece of the pie..

[noob]

Personally, I don't care what MS bundle with their software, it is their's.

What I don't like is their inability to comply with international standards.

I prefer Opera (edit -> undo for accidently closing a tab sold me), but I don't care what people use. If someone has a website that doesn't allow either Firefox or Opera, I don't go there, and if its an online shop, if people ask, I will advise against them.

There are web standards, if people don't comply, thats when I have a problem. I don't have a problem with MS bundling a browser, I have a problem that they are deciding how the web evolves, there are already standards, comply or use something else that does.

[Daniel ~]

Really, I don't have enemies, per se, there are actions in opposition to my princibles.
Actions I must oppose. There ideologies and principalities I must oppose.

But the state of my world is such, that I have with drawn from the world in order to preserve my princibles in seclusion. When faced with over whelming odds, withdrawal can become the only opposition possible in a given time.

In that seclusion I discovered this truth. I am not in opposition to them or anyone, They, who are not everyone, are in opposition to me and they who are not them.":O}

And we have this great ally. "Everything that goes to extremes, Meets with misfortune* in time it exhausts itself and finds itself cut off from the sources of true nourishment."

(*For the I-Ching, "misfortune" is "no longer being in a position to correct your mistakes." We have seen and recently discussed this in reference to AMD I believe.)