Stolen State?

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by gizmo

If your Father did wrong, and because of his wrong you have gained, do you not owe something back?

Mind you, I'm not entirely certain I completely agree with this line of reasoning to the degree that some seem inclined to carry it, but I can at least understand it.

The last I knew, the United States Government had entered into 323 treaties with the various tribes of American Indians. It had outright broken 322 of them, and the remaining one (the establishment of Reservations for each of the Indian Nations) has been so bent it might as well be broken. The establishment of the reservation in Oklahoma for the Cherokee Nation and the forced march on the "Trail of Tears" ("Nunna daul Tsuny" in Cherokee) is one of the most brutal elements of American history, rivaled only by the slave trade. (My great-great-grandmother came from Georgia on the Trail of Tears when she was a little girl; her mother and father both died on the march.)

The Bureau of Indian Affairs is supposed to look after the best interests of the American Indians. The best interests of the American Indians would be better served if the bureaucrats in the B.I.A. were all drawn and quartered, burned, and their remains scattered to the winds.

Our government, in the guise of 'caring' for the American Indian has, at nearly every turn, either neglected or outright ignored the requests of the tribes for basic necessities. I know people who live not 30 miles from me on Indian land who live in run-down shacks with dirt floors. They get a visit once a year from a B.I.A. representative who promises to do something to improve their conditions, goes back to Washington and promptly forgets about them.

They OWN (by American law) the land that they live on, yet they are not permitted to lease it to someone else to use for farming, mining, or anything else. That has to be done by the B.I.A. because the B.I.A. looks after their interests. About the only thing they CAN do with their own land is sell it to someone else, unless they want to declare the land to be no longer part of the reservation (and therefore no longer Indian) and pay taxes on it.

That is exactly what many of them have done. Many of the members of the Quapaw, Seneca, and Cayuga tribes have sold their land to people for development, for a one-time fee, and now they have nothing.

However, all is not lost. It seems some bright boy found a loophole in the law. The tribes have been banding together to build casinos on their land. Because it is Indian land, it is outside the jurisdiction of U.S. law, and is governed by the laws of the tribes instead. Which means that although Missouri has a law against gambling (except on the Missouri and Mississippi rivers), the tribes can have gambling establishments of their own. Because of the loophole in the law (I don't know all the details), they are able to hire an outside firm to develop the land, build the casino, and the Indians manage it and reap the profits from it. They have been taking these profits and turning them back to helping themselves. Heh. The white man ripped them off. Now they're getting even.

After A great many years of debilitating the tribes, a new stragity was found, the Casino!

This has divided their tribes like nothing else. It's also a bust. To many casinos. This does not help those who wish to maintain their tribal heritage. It helps those who want to live as we do (poor fools)

There has been a mess of violence, some looks very much like it was government instigated over this AND the Uranium mines we killed a whole big mess of them.


But hey it' all in the past, at lest 5 minutes sense the feds killed or framed an Indian leader. Who they don't incarcerate becomes the Indian the Government deals with.

Hey! Did WE win WWII? Did we go to the moon? Then we murdered and raped our way across the continent.

And are doing so this very day.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Toro

but seriously...

i may be a bit tipsy

but alex says he doesnt see you giving anything back... where is your family from originally? I dont see you heading back there?

ps what is done is done... please dont think im stiring things im pointing out that you seem to be hurt that the whites stole these lands, which I do not disagree with, and kidnapped people from africa, and anywhere else they could, but we are not the same people that took these lands. I have often thought about how everyone should just return to their own lands, but this would be somewhat impractical. I do not know enough about this history, but all i know is that we are not our forefathers, why should anyone pay for what their father did or didn't do?

/me prepares for onslaught of Daniel~'s elite argument, which he knows will blow his away, but had to post

It simply isn't possible to right "ALL" the wrongs of the past, especially when mass murder is the subject or the subjection of an entire Continent.

Nor, despite the sloppiness of those who have read my post and commented upon it, do I advocate a direct quid pro quo.

In fact up to this point I've advocated nothing. I simply put fourth the facts and refuse to take seriously the completely ignorant, to lazy to learn what they need to know to have a valid opinion.

That said, it doesn't have to be this bad for the victims of our continuing and rapacious racism and greed.

The policy officially adopted by Washington and NEVER changed was and is extermination. We STILL intend to wipe them out! Weather by imprisonment, starvation, disease, drugs or cultural absorption. THAT IS THE US GOVERNMENTS STATED POLICY. Never receded.

We all want to be just, nobody wants to look at what we do everyday or pay for it.

Like most US citizens you have asked "What will it cost me." Like most you forgot to ask "What have I cost THEM."

Justice must ask both questions and be prepared to accept the answer at ANY COST.

We have NEVER asked them what they might accept as our apology...We have never even offered an apology...it might have legal implications...

"Your the receiver of stolen goods and lost lives and we don't even feel sorry. At lest not enough to give it back, or at lest give back enough of it that the lives we destroyed might be restored."

If one chooses to see this as a plan for restoration, I suppose one could. But it was offered as an observation, not a plan. You wouldn't like any of my plans, they all involve asking those harmed for a possible solution.

[Daniel ~]

BTW When the Swiss were found to have kept Nazi gold taken for the Jews, how many of you stood up to say:
"NO WAY DUDE!" The Swiss didn't kill anyone their hands are clean, let them keep it!"

Just curious if we have any official Nazis among us.WE do after all have some of their best policies!

1. disparage the right to be called human.

2 kill them all or as many as we can

3. imprison as many as we can.

4. create concentration camps.

5. starve them in the concentration camps.

6. start PR campaigns trilled by the wonders of concentration camps.

7. kill leaders as they come forth.

8. relie upon the ignorance of history to cover our trail.

9. Make up some fatherland stuff, like "America the Beautiful"
so that the common man becomes enraged if anything but praise is offered of such a great people as ourselves.

10. Claim it never happened or if it happened was exaggerated or THEIR fault.

[Daniel ~]

Why is the history more important that most? Because unlike what you have been led by the nose to believe, IT IS NOT OVER. We kill them everyday! Washington is there! Washington is carrying out policy. you pretend not to know about.

I say pretend as I've told the same people before to read a book. To be told twice is really not to be respected. If one has no time or aptitude to learn, one should listen rather than speak... how very un-American of me!

Unless it's educated your opinion ain't worth the time to read.

Ignorance need not be broadcast, it's inherent in all of us and needs no voice to explain it.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Staz

Quick, Someone steal the soap box befor Daniel hops on it again!

Why? You wouldn't understand it anyway.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by alexkerhead

Daniel, you are the most arrogant fool I have ever had the displeasure of debating with.

My ignorance is only exceeded by your ignorance apparently.

You keep saying "we" killed, well, I don't know if you have killed anyone, but I have not, or have been involved in a murder.

I have no debts either, I do not intend to pay for another man's wrongdoing.

Have I been "dence" all my life....well....I do not believe I have ever been dense.

The question is, have you always been so damned arrogant and snobby?

You are completely blind to any and all reality, you substitute it for your own little blique world, where you try and make yourself feel better by calling people "ignorant" or telling them "to read a book"

When you tell me to read a book, you are just adding to your arrogance by
asuming I haven't read a book.


Asuming things such as if someone has read a book or not is completely arrogant, and arrogance is almost always accompanied by ignorance.

Perhaps, but you still haven't read a book on the subject now have you? You still speak the same nonsense, so either you haven't or you didn't get much from it.

I'm assuming here that you are indeed more intelligent than your opinions, alway an arrow pointing to lack of education or bigotry.

Of the two I prefer lack of education, that can be fixed far easier...

We have been friends Alex. But you have to understand that I spare my friends nothing they have a right to. I never spare them the best truth I have, as educated and informed as I can make it.

I seem to have upset a few people, lack of manners was always a weakness of mine when discussing the oppressed with their oppressors.

On the other hand, tough... ignorance should at lest know itself if it's to become more with time.

So are you going to be this dense all your life or are you going to do the reading necessary to support your now totally ignorent point of view?

[alexkerhead]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

So are you going to be this dense all your life or are you going to do the reading necessary to support your now totally ignorent point of view?

As you said, its a point of view, as where yours is too.
But, I just started college, maybe I will get to learn something in a different perspective being there, so no, I probably won't be as "dense" in time.
I am no bigot, I assure you of that Daniel, please do not be disheartened in the mere thought I could be, because I am far from it.
Racial issues are something I have had the opportunity to read a lot about, via research papers, essays, etc. As you may already know, I live in the center of racial opression in America, and I know far too well how racist and cruel people can be.
The reason you don't fully understand my point of view, is because you haven't witnessed this racial opression first hand, you hear about on the news, internet, or books, but you still don't ever really understand until you witness it first hand.
These factors are upsetting to me, and alter my point of view on racial issues greatly. So what you see as ignorant, does not seem ignorant to someone who has actually witnessed this hatred first hand, and not from a remote location.
Next time you get ready to call someone ignorant, take all factors into perspective please, I assure you it will make everyone a lot happier, even you in the end.

[Daniel ~]

Even educated points of view often go astray to miss the mark.

"What is important is not to confine oneself to a mere knowledge of history. But to give actuality to the past in ones own person."

I-Ching.

Here what is meant is something along the lines of studying "The Trail of Tears" That haunts Gizmo and so many of us.

The personalities involved; what motivated those who fed, those who pursued. But more than anything... the Spirit of the people we sought to oppress.

Our Military still studies the strategies and tactics that allowed diseased, starving and brutalized old people, women and children led by a hand full of men to evade and ultimately escape from a fully equipped modern army determined to return them to starve and freeze upon the Reservation.

What they do not study lies in the spirits of those who pursued and those who fled... our shame would over run all hope of creating a proud soldier.

True study of history is to first gain an insight into events by way of the people and forces involved. Then to take what is best in those involved upon one's self as a scared duty.

To internalize as much as possible the resolve, the determination and the courage of those men women and children.To use their sacrifice to strengthen our resolve to never yield in the fight against evil.

They NEVER yielded in their fight against our evil. Because they did not their children s children fight on to this very day against the same oppressors.

This very day they continue to die in that battle. To this very day we continue to DAMN ourselves in that oppression.


Alex. You really do need to learn to stop making assumptions.

The North is no less racist than the South, the west no less than the east. Am I not an American born and bread?

Then how could I have not witnessed racism and racist acts?

Finally. You are as a child to one of my years. We are not equals in our experience, knowledge nor position.You are walking in as I walk out. You are beginning what I am preparing an end for.

It is presumptuous of you to offer me advice upon my conduct.

I understand that this is difficult for the young to understand.
But I have not wasted my time upon this Earth.

You have, despite how it seems at your age, barely begun to undertake the task before you.

It is unseemly for a fresh recruit to offer advice to a drill sargent upon the proper formation of the troops.

In a well run society I would not have to mention these things. But you've been denied an education worthy of the name and allowances are made, just not the ones you alluded to. ":O}

You quite right in that you have no choice but to arm yourself, to educate yourself. There are wars to being fought and battles enough to claim us all.

STUDY THE TRAIL OF TEARS.

"There's a river of tears that flows though our eyes.
There's a river of tears that flows through our lies.
There's a river of tears that flows though our lives."

In their perseverance lies the hope of the World.

In learning "to make a good a good confession" and carry out "a good act of contrition" lies the hope of America.

How can oppressors ever reside or preside over a "Land of the Free"?

"What so ever you deny these ones, so you have denied me also." Difficult words for a "Christian Nation" to absorb

When Christ was fleeing with the oppressed and howling at the blood in a child's foot print across a winters snow that may one day freeze this world.......

[Staz]

Here it is as I understand it. Most of the dark smudges of our history have been made possible by unreasonable fear. The government made white people afraid of Native Americans. They made them out to be less than human. Through a series of propagandas and outright lies the few in power were able to convince the majority to give up their rights and freedoms and the rights and freedoms of those around them in order to commit atrocities upon the perceived enemy. This was all done to seize even more power and wealth for themselves without regard to the masses.

Thing is this isn't just restricted to Americans and Native Americans, It started with civilization itself and continues on to this very day.

So why are we wasting our time and energy discussing and argueing about who is at fault?

[Phat Pat]

Originally Posted by Staz

Here it is as I understand it. Most of the dark smudges of our history have been made possible by unreasonable fear. The government made white people afraid of Native Americans. They made them out to be less than human. Through a series of propagandas and outright lies the few in power were able to convince the majority to give up their rights and freedoms and the rights and freedoms of those around them in order to commit atrocities upon the perceived enemy. This was all done to seize even more power and wealth for themselves without regard to the masses.

Thing is this isn't just restricted to Americans and Native Americans, It started with civilization itself and continues on to this very day.

So why are we wasting our time and energy discussing and argueing about who is at fault?

I wrote a paper from this point of view once. My teacher got all ticked off. Ahhhh highschool, I don't miss it at all.

[Staz]

Originally Posted by Phat Pat

I wrote a paper from this point of view once. My teacher got all ticked off. Ahhhh highschool, I don't miss it at all.

While in college taking English Composition I had to write an arguement. I chose the second amendment. I started with by quoting the second amendment, then I went on to all of the arguements made by the NRA in opposition to gun control and tore them down. Then I went to all of the arguement for gun control and tore them down. Then I went on to how I interpeted the Second amendment, and how a modern police force is the equivalent of a well regulated militia and the parts that made it a well regulated militia, and how as long as I am not a convicted felon I should e able to owns arms simple because I want to with no other justification.

That tree huggin' draft dodgin' hippy gave me a "D" for improper research and faulty concepts. We wrote 6 papers, 3 As 2 Bs and that one D. And the only red on the paper was where he was disagreeing with my arguements as to why gun control activist were wrong. No spelling or gramatical errors (This was in the days befor spell check and it was writen in a composition book in black ink by hand.)

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Staz

Here it is as I understand it. Most of the dark smudges of our history have been made possible by unreasonable fear. The government made white people afraid of Native Americans. They made them out to be less than human. Through a series of propagandas and outright lies the few in power were able to convince the majority to give up their rights and freedoms and the rights and freedoms of those around them in order to commit atrocities upon the perceived enemy. This was all done to seize even more power and wealth for themselves without regard to the masses.

Thing is this isn't just restricted to Americans and Native Americans, It started with civilization itself and continues on to this very day.

So why are we wasting our time and energy discussing and argueing about who is at fault?

Mostly we aren't. Mostly we just sit back all self sadisfied and have a cool one on them.

Thing a about the wheel is that you can only change what happens at the bottom of the turn while you are at/on top.

Rome lasted 500 years. That seems about par the course in the west.

"The Wheel grinds slowly but exceedingly fine."

[Phat Pat]

Originally Posted by Staz

While in college taking English Composition I had to write an arguement. I chose the second amendment. I started with by quoting the second amendment, then I went on to all of the arguements made by the NRA in opposition to gun control and tore them down. Then I went to all of the arguement for gun control and tore them down. Then I went on to how I interpeted the Second amendment, and how a modern police force is the equivalent of a well regulated militia and the parts that made it a well regulated militia, and how as long as I am not a convicted felon I should e able to owns arms simple because I want to with no other justification.

That tree huggin' draft dodgin' hippy gave me a "D" for improper research and faulty concepts. We wrote 6 papers, 3 As 2 Bs and that one D. And the only red on the paper was where he was disagreeing with my arguements as to why gun control activist were wrong. No spelling or gramatical errors (This was in the days befor spell check and it was writen in a composition book in black ink by hand.)

Sounds a lot like my english professor

[alexkerhead]

Originally Posted by Daniel ~

Even educated points of view often go astray to miss the mark.

"What is important is not to confine oneself to a mere knowledge of history. But to give actuality to the past in ones own person."

I-Ching.

Here what is meant is something along the lines of studying "The Trail of Tears" That haunts Gizmo and so many of us.

The personalities involved; what motivated those who fed, those who pursued. But more than anything... the Spirit of the people we sought to oppress.

Our Military still studies the strategies and tactics that allowed diseased, starving and brutalized old people, women and children led by a hand full of men to evade and ultimately escape from a fully equipped modern army determined to return them to starve and freeze upon the Reservation.

What they do not study lies in the spirits of those who pursued and those who fled... our shame would over run all hope of creating a proud soldier.

True study of history is to first gain an insight into events by way of the people and forces involved. Then to take what is best in those involved upon one's self as a scared duty.

To internalize as much as possible the resolve, the determination and the courage of those men women and children.To use their sacrifice to strengthen our resolve to never yield in the fight against evil.

They NEVER yielded in their fight against our evil. Because they did not their children s children fight on to this very day against the same oppressors.

This very day they continue to die in that battle. To this very day we continue to DAMN ourselves in that oppression.


Alex. You really do need to learn to stop making assumptions.

The North is no less racist than the South, the west no less than the east. Am I not an American born and bread?

Then how could I have not witnessed racism and racist acts?

Finally. You are as a child to one of my years. We are not equals in our experience, knowledge nor position.You are walking in as I walk out. You are beginning what I am preparing an end for.

It is presumptuous of you to offer me advice upon my conduct.

I understand that this is difficult for the young to understand.
But I have not wasted my time upon this Earth.

You have, despite how it seems at your age, barely begun to undertake the task before you.

It is unseemly for a fresh recruit to offer advice to a drill sargent upon the proper formation of the troops.

In a well run society I would not have to mention these things. But you've been denied an education worthy of the name and allowances are made, just not the ones you alluded to. ":O}

You quite right in that you have no choice but to arm yourself, to educate yourself. There are wars to being fought and battles enough to claim us all.

STUDY THE TRAIL OF TEARS.

"There's a river of tears that flows though our eyes.
There's a river of tears that flows through our lies.
There's a river of tears that flows though our lives."

In their perseverance lies the hope of the World.

In learning "to make a good a good confession" and carry out "a good act of contrition" lies the hope of America.

How can oppressors ever reside or preside over a "Land of the Free"?

"What so ever you deny these ones, so you have denied me also." Difficult words for a "Christian Nation" to absorb

When Christ was fleeing with the oppressed and howling at the blood in a child's foot print across a winters snow that may one day freeze this world.......

I see what you are talking about now.
Thank you for your eloquence in that post, it makes understanding your point of view much easier.

[Daniel ~]

Hopefullly something of "Their" point of view as well. Your quite welcome Alex.