Stolen State?

[aghastpumpkin]

In response to Page 1.

You both repeatedly say "we".
Are you forgetting something?
250 years ago America did not exist as it does today. You are basically a mixture of, for arguments sake, 70% English and 30% European.
You are English people thrown into an unkown continent who have therefore caused an AWFUL LOT of bloody trouble.
I am ashamed that this is mostly the shame and responsibility of my country.
But, now that is is, if there is one thing I'd like you Yanks to remember, it's your roots.
You are not your own race!

[aghastpumpkin]

By the way, before some picky so-n-so tackles me for facts, the "facts" I state may not be actual but are just rough estimates for the sake of the argument.

[alexkerhead]

jeezzz, quickbeam, world's longest post.

[alexkerhead]

Originally Posted by aghastpumpkin

In response to Page 1.

You both repeatedly say "we".
Are you forgetting something?
250 years ago America did not exist as it does today. You are basically a mixture of, for arguments sake, 70% English and 30% European.

ummm, I believe that is what started the arguement?
I said that "We didn't do anything"
and Daniel was all like "oh yes we did"
and I was like "like what"
and he was like "accepting stolen goods"

thats sort of the basis of the arguement.

Question:
Did you actually read the whole thing?

BTW, my family is mostly finnish and native american.(75%/20%/5% other)
Woot....lol

[aghastpumpkin]

If I had time to read all three pages, I would. But I don't. There are many, many posts which are hundreds of words long. I can't take in every little detail at once.
No wonder Daniel gets annoyed.
Firstly, you must think I'm some sort of lame-ass. Obviously not everybody in America has the same roots, obviously some people are going to made up of hundreds of nationalities. But, at the beginning, it was mostly English and other Europeans.
Secondly, you say that it's the basis of your argument. But your arguement is about stealing from Native Americans, is it not? Not remembering your roots from other Countries? Sure, tell me if I've totally missed it.
The reason I said what I said is I find it often frustrating about this American Patriotism. It seems, so much important facts are overlooked and forgotten.
Kids wave their stars and striped, Adults sing a long to the National Anthem.
But how many really know, respect, are thankful for, their roots?
In England, most kids know the name "Anglo-Saxon". My name I have been told is Anglo-Saxian. We know we were once Celts, Romans, Saxons, Anglicans.
But if you asked an American kid in say, New York, where his roots were, would he know?
Again, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't really know, I'm just not convinced.

Could you just be a little nicer to people? It doesn't take much, but the second somebody posts an opinion yuo don't like, it's time to eat them alive.
The tone of your posts just doesn't seem friendly at all to me, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chesso]

I don't know about in other country's but the well (5% made up) natives here in australia mostly give everyone that isn't them absolute crap quite randomly. They get more benefits in this country then any other race, as far as i know they did have some sort of offocial apology(though i don't expect that to be much consolation).

What im trying to say is they act like little bastards and deserve what ever hell i decide to give them. Their parents teach them rubbish there is more to the story then what their told and believe i suppose the same could be said for those of us who pretty much originate from back over in england and what not.

Don't take my words too seriously though i never much liked history and groaned at the thought of aboriginal studies being a mandatory subject. I mean it would be nice to know about this but how the hell is this going to get me a job? what is this damn education for(sorry if im heading towards off topic) if i wanted to study indeginious people i would have done so in my own time(which i have but i wouldn't bother using it for an argument who the hell know's what is the truth and what isn't these days).

Anyway i just thought id add the very small knowledge base i have on this and i need to burn sometime until i get a little help with my delphi project(sorry if anyone think's i wasted their time for because of my reason of posting this).

Also i would like to see this uhh debate? i guess continue it is interesting to see what other's have to say about all this and daniel mate wow you sure can type, i would say you know what your'e talking about but unfortunately i was brought up to understand errr simpler english?(basically alot of slang and cuss words but most people where i live aren't bothered by it or use it themselves).

Either way we weren't there and really can we rely on what has been written and what has been said? you may believe so, but that doesn't mean it's true. But if it's your belief i suppose you have to defend it where you see fit right?(makes sense to me).

Wow im typing way too much(im half asleep and haven't slept much in days been helping a few mates out with software projects lately) i better go before i type a short novel

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Quickbeam177

Very well...



This is manic pessimism, and in no way fact. But like I said, it isn't your ideas, it is the way you communicate them... I say so from a most humble position, forgive me.

And I do stand by the idea that battles are fought over ideas with people as the carriers/representatives of these ideas. We're tools of authority and our human capabilities are deployed by those authorities to do their bidding. Do you really disagree with that? That the soldiers in Iraq, for example, are doing the bidding of their government and its idea, rather than out there just to kill in bloodlust?

Granted your writing becomes calmer, more critical, and assertive especially when defending yourself against accusations of the opposite, there is an element of hypocrisy in your dismissal of such accusations as an emotional response.

But this is only evident when you rant and rave about humans and politics in general... otherwise I feel you are quite wise

You use the language a bit differently from most, Define: arrogance.

In fact you seem to hide what is no more than your opinion in name calling.What you see as "manic" is no more than a stylistic and differing point of view from that which you hold.

I have no trouble accepting that you disagree with just about anything I might have to say. Attack the idea that you appose rather than charactering those who hold it. (Something I freely concede I need to work on myself).

As you have nothing of substance to back up what you've had to say about me, I would prefer it in the future if you would refrain from sharing your views of my person. They hold no interest for me and are in fact only marginally within forum rules.

To be honest, I'd had hoped for more from you. I had hoped for a real examination of what you had to say. I had hoped you would realize when you had unjustly harmed another.The term " "Passive/aggressive" comes to mind.

How wonderful you are to be able to advice in this way those who by your account are "Quite wise."

Yet stand in need of your unsought opinions upon their conduct.That are, in my view, now to be seen as completely unsubstantiated opinions.Supported by no more than your dislike of my posts.

I carry around a lot of hope, causes no end of trouble.":O}

You made a lot of noise, but really haven't shown me much to worry about as far as my posts go...thank you for your concern about my posts.

[Quickbeam177]

There is nothing out there, Daniel, that will prove to you otherwise of what you already believe. But instead of realizing this easily, and accepting that we disagree, you resort to being condescending, and sometimes even obnoxious. These are not insults as I said, they are observations.
EDIT:
I have explained once that you opinions concerning my person are of no interest to me and are in fact a violation of fourm rules. As your conflict is with me, I'm inclined to let this past this once.

But not again.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Chesso

"I don't know about in other country's but the well (5% made up) natives here in Australia mostly give everyone that isn't them absolute crap quite randomly. They get more benefits in this country then any other race, as far as i know they did have some sort of official apology(though i don't expect that to be much consolation)."


What I'm trying to say is they act like little bastards and deserve what ever hell i decide to give them. Their parents teach them rubbish there is more to the story then what their told and believe i suppose the same could be said for those of us who pretty much originate from back over in england and what not.

Don't take my words too seriously though i never much liked history and groaned at the thought of aboriginal studies being a mandatory subject. I mean it would be nice to know about this but how the hell is this going to get me a job? what is this damn education for(sorry if I'm heading to wards off topic) if i wanted to study indigenous people i would have done so in my own time(which i have but i wouldn't bother using it for an argument who the hell knows what is the truth and what isn't these days).

Anyway i just thought id add the very small knowledge base i have on this and i need to burn sometime until i get a little help with my delphi project(sorry if anyone thinks i wasted their time for because of my reason of posting this).

Also i would like to see this uhh debate? i guess continue it is interesting to see what other's have to say about all this and daniel mate wow you sure can type, i would say you know what your'e talking about but unfortunately i was brought up to understand errr simpler english?(basically alot of slang and cuss words but most people where i live aren't bothered by it or use it themselves).

Either way we weren't there and really can we rely on what has been written and what has been said? you may believe so, but that doesn't mean it's true. But if it's your belief i suppose you have to defend it where you see fit right?(makes sense to me).

Wow im typing way too much(im half asleep and haven't slept much in days been helping a few mates out with software projects lately) i better go before i type a short novel

Hello Chesso, good to hear from you. Still haven't read that book I see.":O}

I'll try to explain as best I might.

One day Aussys watch as the Japanese fleets pulls up in Sydney. They speak a language you don't understand, but are are able to make their intentions clear by killing everyone in sight they aren't busy raping.

They like Australia! They move your asses out and settle down. But Japaneses kids asks a LOT of questions! So Japaneses grown up make up a LOT of lies. These lies become a part of their culture. They NEED to believe them if they are to face their kids and still talk Buddha on special Buddha days.

A few generations pass. The Japaneses admit that killing most of you was a mistake! But that, "Hey! Mistakes were made on both sides! Anyhow that's all in the past! Time to move on!!"

Japanese kids internals these "Truths"

Soon one can here them talking about the rubbish that "They" (in this case Australians) talk! The way they think they are entitled! The way they think they are better than our murdering raping fore fathers and mothers!

But not to worry, "they" are only 5 % of the Gen pop...now... that we've put things to right in Australia.

Chesso, I understand that where you are it is very hard to see beyond the moment to it's origins.But your current situation has it's roots in a dark and bloody past. Most would rather not look at it.

Trust me, your better off "materially" that justice is not a part of your dealings with these ORIGINAL peoples.

That White men create the statutes of limitations, that you have the power to say no to truth and complain that they have not assimilated with the people who hated them enough to almost exterminate them.

I know you are poor and poorly educated. I am to. Don't use the Abo's as an excuse. Your oppressors are the same color as theirs. Weather you realize it or not, THEY and not rich white men are our natural allies.

YOUR fate is more as theirs than as the Goverment officals who feed you lies to keep you separate, ignorant and in confusion.

You can by pass them all and learn the truth if you will do but one thing. Find a willing Aboriginal and learn his world.

If you do not. I fear you will remain an unintentional racist all your life. As I tried to express to Axle, we need not intend the harm we do, we need only be indifferent to the facts history to perpetuate it's evil.

If your to see your way clear of what is clearly harmful to you, there is need to separate out what you know from what you "think" you know about these things.

Being poor and ignorant need not stop one from making progress. Indeed poverty and ignorance may be the best foundation for true education....and maybe not.":O}

In any case, I'm telling as your friend that you need to correct your attitude before it does you permeate harm.

"Am I not a man? If cut me do I not bleed?"

Now be a good man and read that book, find your man, someone to guide you where you have never been, inside a non-white skin. I have no better advice to offer you.

BTW I can't type at all! I'm just persistent.":O}

[Toro]

Originally Posted by Chesso

Don't take my words too seriously though i never much liked history and groaned at the thought of aboriginal studies being a mandatory subject. I mean it would be nice to know about this but how the hell is this going to get me a job? what is this damn education for(sorry if im heading towards off topic) if i wanted to study indeginious people i would have done so in my own time(which i have but i wouldn't bother using it for an argument who the hell know's what is the truth and what isn't these days)

not sure if you are being sarcastic here... but I would imagine the purpose of this education is not to get you a job (unless you want a job in studying in the "Abo's" way of life), but to give you understanding of their culture, and thus be less ignorant of their understanding of life and how things should work, this in turn should make for less conflict, as this often (i find) comes from a lack of understanding of all parties involved.


Also I would like to say that age is not guarantee of wisdom, I think that it is wrong of people to shoot people down as being ingnorant of the facts just because they are not as old.

Finaly, I would like to say that this is an argument that wil rage on for many years, and may never end, how can it possibly be put right? It simply can't, as far as I can see anyway. but then I don't know enough about it, maybe someone can recommend some books to me? (no sarcasm intended)

[Daniel ~]

Black Elk Speaks
Hunta yo!
Medicine wheel
The Teachings of Don Juan; A Yaki way of Knowledge
Geronimo
And of course James Finimore Cooper's
"The last of the Mohicans"

There are numerous books on "The Trail of Tears" But I can't make a recommendation between them.

Been quite a few years, but most of these should be still in print. My spelling may be off on some.

Ignorance of fact is the flaw of youth. It is a unavoidable condition of youth and by no means a barrier to learning, but rather it's fore runner.

To be factually wrong IS to stand in need of correction. How else can progress be made? To offer such correction is not an insult. It's a necessity of learning.

Age may indeed be no barrier to wisdom, but wisdoms first movement is to ascertain the facts.

To lack or simply have the facts wrong has little to do with age beyond needed time to gain certainty of fact.

That is, youth has a dispensation that fades with time.

When I "shoot someone down" for getting the facts wrong, it's rarely ONLY that that pulls my trigger.

Usually (in my view, always) there is damage being done by way of misrepresentation and/or distortion of the facts to suit purposes other than the truth.

I can hardly expect that those I bruise will see it this way, but that's part and parcel with the problem I'm trying to address.

Could I be more gentle? Sure, often am, I choose not to be gentle. I choose to be confrontational. In my book evil must be confronted at every turn. All that matters to me is that I not become involved with the evil I confront. That I not become what I fight.

Am I fallible? Glad you asked! LOL

Yes, but these are the eyes I was given, these are the perceptions I am stuck with if I am to remain true to myself and my perception.

People crying crying like babies that are spanked for doing wrong makes no impression on me what so ever.

I take positions I feel are important. I defend those position against all comers, the sincere and the insincere. How I do so is often dependent upon weather I perceive someone as being sincere or simply trying to get in the way because they are bored with nothing else to do, or actually have evil intentions.

Personally I have never found a single approach that suits all. I've never been popular. Never enjoyed a majority view nor earned praise.

Nobody likes being told they are wrong, like it less if you prove it.Deny the proof it you offer it. I'm not here for the many, but for the few.

Those who can't abide nor ignore me will probably be happier elsewhere.

Toro While I am speaking to you, please don't think I'm speaking of you...at this time":O}

I've tried to be completely honest with you. I've tried to be aware of your concerns and to speak to them.

I stay within our rules and accept correction should I fail to do so.

If any wants more, I don't have it. It wasn't worth my time to cultivate more. More, for me, would be less.

Just telling it like it is, for me.

[Toro]

damn it, that was going to my last post on this thread lol

thanks Daniel, will need to see if i can hunt them down when i next get paid!

I accept that if people are wrong, this needs to be put right, just think there's a gentler way of doing it, obviously the langauge and words we use (especially when we are limited to text) is very important in doing this. To be honest I did find you to be a bit agressive in your sharing of your knowledge and points of view, and I know this probably wasn't your intention, just think that others could (and I think have) misconstrue your writings as an attack.

[Quickbeam177]

It wasn't against your person, it was against your posts. Your heart is set in stone for that is what age does. I was foolish to try and change it. I thought I made some excellent points, however.

Let it be settled, then. No ill feelings here.

[Daniel ~]

"Your heart is set in stone for that is what age does."

Your next comment upon my person will be your last.

I found your posts factually wrong on many counts. But time is limited and I try to work with those who wish to work with me.

Yes there are ill feeling here. But to go into why would not further things.Nor will they burden me beyond the next five minutes.

You've just had one more warning than the usual. This, as I've said, to make clear the situation to you. And to distance this from what has gone before.

Next time you will be ban.

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Toro

damn it, that was going to my last post on this thread lol

thanks Daniel, will need to see if i can hunt them down when i next get paid!

I accept that if people are wrong, this needs to be put right, just think there's a gentler way of doing it, obviously the langauge and words we use (especially when we are limited to text) is very important in doing this. To be honest I did find you to be a bit aggressive in your sharing of your knowledge and points of view, and I know this probably wasn't your intention, just think that others could (and I think have) misconstrue your writings as an attack.

Sometimes my posts are an attack! Mostly I try and attack an idea or it's inappropriate use. But as I stated above, sometimes the person holding the idea and their intentions bring them under the same attack.

Some ideas are so repugnant as to earn abuse for all who hold them. And sometimes I just get pissed off.

All well and good, but if you feel I break the rules, please let me know.

[danrok]

Originally Posted by Quickbeam177

Let it be settled, then. No ill feelings here.

So it's that easy to just insult someone who did you no wrong, then just shrug your shoulders and walk off?

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by gizmo

If your Father did wrong, and because of his wrong you have gained, do you not owe something back?

Mind you, I'm not entirely certain I completely agree with this line of reasoning to the degree that some seem inclined to carry it, but I can at least understand it.

The last I knew, the United States Government had entered into 323 treaties with the various tribes of American Indians. It had outright broken 322 of them, and the remaining one (the establishment of Reservations for each of the Indian Nations) has been so bent it might as well be broken. The establishment of the reservation in Oklahoma for the Cherokee Nation and the forced march on the "Trail of Tears" ("Nunna daul Tsuny" in Cherokee) is one of the most brutal elements of American history, rivaled only by the slave trade. (My great-great-grandmother came from Georgi