Yahoo, Google, Microsoft in troubles over human rights

[danrok]

From the Front Page:
http://www.aoaforums.com/frontpage/content/view/1034/2/

Comments?

[Daniel ~]

May they lose the rights they with hold from others!

[Kaitain]

Rock, hard place.

If M$, Googl€ and ¥ahoo don't kowtow to the present Chinese administration's demands to censor the internet then they aren't allowed to operate. Since still 51% of all businesses operating in China must be Chinese-owned, then this can be forced by panicking the local franchisee.

If M$, Googl€ and ¥ahoo do submit to the Chinese government's demands, then they get heavy criticism from here.

My own personal experience of Chinese censorship is that there's a lot more bull faeces spouted about it than there is truth or evidence. Some high profile sites, such as the BBC and wikipedia are blocked, along with very overt references to certain subjects. (Actually, I think they're most sensible in clamping down on Falun Gong - it reads like an Easternised form of Scientology). However, I have read about the Tiananmen massacre in China without using a proxy, and about the occupation (ha, "liberation") of Tibet, and haven't (to my knowledge) been arrested or incarcerated for it.

The Chinese internet law states that internet cafés must keep records of who uses computers and which sites they visit. Every internet café I've used has systematically failed to do this.

Pornography is illegal, yet people happily sit in these cafés watching hardcore porn broadcast over the 'net. Over the last 18 months, Mei has never once seen a 'net bar raided for "subversive content".

Blogs and forums are monitored. In many ways, they're victims of their own success, as small blogs and fora are left pretty much untouched.

Dissident printed press is censored, but... it is here as well if we're being honest.

Internet censorship is Hu Jintao's cause célèbre, wrongly even in the opinion of elder statesmen from Jiang's rule. Hu has the ability to revolutionise and modernise China, democratise the regions (so as to end the corruption of lifelong regional dictators) and secure the governance of China back in Beijing, however he's wasting his time pissing in the wind over trifles like what bored teenagers write about in their bedrooms.

So people will be censored today, but either he'll wake up and address real problems, or his reign will collapse. Probably in about 10 years.

Fun times.

(Posting paused while Mei read it and made comments)

[dsio]

I just had a brief read about it... Falun Gong has 100 Million devotees, was only really pushed on the public in 1992, and the bloke that started it is their god?

[Kaitain]

Yeah, it's another one where they "gain ultimate truth" by ridding themselves of some nefarious alien presence. The difficult bit is this "wheel of justice" garbage. The dumb sod that wrote this religion decided to locate the wheel precisely in the navel, just above the bladder. The Chinese government decided to clamp down after one too many people cut themself open with the kitchen scissors looking for it.

[dsio]

Originally Posted by Kaitain

Yeah, it's another one where they "gain ultimate truth" by ridding themselves of some nefarious alien presence. The difficult bit is this "wheel of justice" garbage. The dumb sod that wrote this religion decided to locate the wheel precisely in the navel, just above the bladder. The Chinese government decided to clamp down after one too many people cut themself open with the kitchen scissors looking for it.

You're just jealous because you didn't think of it first :P

[danrok]

What is the point in censorship?

Censoring something only arouses curiosity in those who may otherwise have been uninterested.

Better to educate people and then let them work it out for themselves.

As for the "51% deal", that's bound to be at the root of many problems. We should all be trading using much the same rules. That's the only fair way to do it.

[Kaitain]

Originally Posted by danrok

What is the point in censorship?

Censoring something only arouses curiosity in those who may otherwise have been uninterested.

Better to educate people and then let them work it out for themselves.

That's the point the former President's cabinet have been making. Aside from anything else, everybody except the computer-illiterate know about proxies and are routing their traffic through Singapore or California. I used Áedán's computer for this purpose when I was over there (thanks, Á).

Originally Posted by danrok

As for the "51% deal", that's bound to be at the root of many problems. We should all be trading using much the same rules. That's the only fair way to do it.

This is what's called "protectionism" and "progress". Not all that long ago foreign investment wasn't allowed at all. China's opening up, but doing it slowly so as not to shock their economy. Western businesses are somewhat more aggressive and more polished in their marketing than Chinese - their govt wants their own guys to catch up before they turn the market place into a free for all.

Europe and America can talk about "fair trading" after they have removed their subsidies on home industries and caps on imports. How's that?

Originally Posted by dsio

You're just jealous because you didn't think of it first :P

Yeah, that's my fast buck lost...

[cloasters]

Ahh, Fair Trade versus Free Trade. Big difference! Personally, I'm in favor of Fair Trade, "Free Trade" means North kicks the South's butt purple and sideways. Fair Trade means a level playing field. It's easy to confuse the two phrases, the trouble is that "Free Trade" means freedom for Godzilla to rape anyway he sees fit.

[danrok]

The bottom line is that the Chinese economy is the fastest growing in the world. This is damaging the economies of other countries and ironically it may well damage China.

Stability is just as important as growth. It is very difficult to maintain stability alongside rapid growth.

I don't see what the Chinese have to fear from foriegn directors. This causes no problems in Europe where US companies can own and run European companies.

However, we have to ask ourselves how come China can make all these goods at such a low price. The answer would appear to be that they have little concern for pollution control and the health of the people in general. This is cost cutting at its worst.

[Gizmo]

"So change in China will depend significantly on the attitudes and practices here at home. American businesses will have to insist that the Chinese goods they buy emanate from factories that are legitimate users of technology. That won't be a simple thing. As with many of the grumblings Americans offer about China, we are party to the very dynamic that bedevils us."

Very interesting article at Inc. Magazine. http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060601/ip-theft.html

[Daniel ~]

Originally Posted by Kaitain

Rock, hard place.

If M$, Googl€ and ¥ahoo don't kowtow to the present Chinese administration's demands to censor the internet then they aren't allowed to operate. Since still 51% of all businesses operating in China must be Chinese-owned, then this can be forced by panicking the local franchisee.

If M$, Googl€ and ¥ahoo do submit to the Chinese government's demands, then they get heavy criticism from here.

My own personal experience of Chinese censorship is that there's a lot more bull faeces spouted about it than there is truth or evidence. Some high profile sites, such as the BBC and wikipedia are blocked, along with very overt references to certain subjects. (Actually, I think they're most sensible in clamping down on Falun Gong - it reads like an Easternised form of Scientology). However, I have read about the Tiananmen massacre in China without using a proxy, and about the occupation (ha, "liberation") of Tibet, and haven't (to my knowledge) been arrested or incarcerated for it.

The Chinese internet law states that internet cafés must keep records of who uses computers and which sites they visit. Every internet café I've used has systematically failed to do this.

Pornography is illegal, yet people happily sit in these cafés watching hardcore porn broadcast over the 'net. Over the last 18 months, Mei has never once seen a 'net bar raided for "subversive content".

Blogs and forums are monitored. In many ways, they're victims of their own success, as small blogs and fora are left pretty much untouched.

Dissident printed press is censored, but... it is here as well if we're being honest.

Internet censorship is Hu Jintao's cause célèbre, wrongly even in the opinion of elder statesmen from Jiang's rule. Hu has the ability to revolutionise and modernise China, democratise the regions (so as to end the corruption of lifelong regional dictators) and secure the governance of China back in Beijing, however he's wasting his time pissing in the wind over trifles like what bored teenagers write about in their bedrooms.

So people will be censored today, but either he'll wake up and address real problems, or his reign will collapse. Probably in about 10 years.

Fun times.

(Posting paused while Mei read it and made comments)

Then they SHOULD NOT operate. This is tyrants talking with tyrants and deciding how to deal with the peasants.

Revolution has a long history in China, I doubt they have forgotten how to bring one about... Wish we hadn't!