The bombing has begun

[cloasters]

OK. I think all the folks thirsty for Afghani blood should be at the nearest armed forces recruitment center tomorrow at 8:45 AM. Sharp. Put your body where it'll have a chance of aiding your ambitions.

If you're already in the military, tally ho!

If you're an eager armchair warrior, play one of your computer combat games. Please don't confuse your prowess at fragging with the experience of dealing with real war in real 3D. And please, spare me your opinions about killing real people. You're entitled to them, but most of you don't have a clue what real war is.

We have been lied to by our political leaders in the US every day of our lives. Modern media makes the repeated injection of the Big Lie into our "consciousness" so easy that it's extremely difficult to understand that this happens to us every time we pick up a newspaper, read a magazine, listen to the radio--and especially, watch tv. Crazy talk? As the lawyers say, "go for the pockets." Sit down and think, "who gains the most by disseminating this version of the truth?" Or, "who is paying for this story?" Did John Q Citizen, of Anytown, USA pay for it?

My intent is only to ask you to challenge some of your assumptions. You may be surprised if you put some effort into it.

Knowledge is freedom. Willfully blinding ourselves and believing that what a venal imitation of a leader says is freedom IS freedom is a tragedy. Why let those that have no space within their black little hearts for any interest in the "little guy's" well being tell you their version of the truth? If their truth has nothing whatsover in it for you--is it your truth?

Don't confuse the US flag that stands behind and to the side of sick little men in suits with YOUR flag. Don't confuse a leader with your country. They don't care a fig for YOUR country. Only their country. Which is an exclusive little club which people like us will never enter.

This has been true throughout history. How can I possibly expect it to change now? I have faith in the man in the street. And none in the hideous twisted little cruds that yap, yet have no understanding of life for the other 95%, the ordinary people.

Even though the official British government's position statement released a few days ago stated ~~"We have insufficient evidence to bring Osama bin Laden before ANY court of law."
The next paragraph reads, very loosely, ~~"nonetheless, we should kill as many people in his part of the world as we possibly can."

No, that's not verbatim. Yet the first paragraph is pretty accurately transcribed. Give me a freakin' break! "He's not even under enough proven suspicion to put him on trial." Yet bringing death, destruction and misery to an already badly suffering population is just fine. How DARE we call ourselves people remotely concerned with justice?

Is Osama bin Laden an evil man? Hard to argue with that. Is George W Bush an evil man? Go on, ask yourself that question. Please, think before you answer.

My opinions are solely my own. The management of this fine Web site neither endorses nor agrees with the preceding post.

[Daniel ~]

WE do endorse and support your RIGHT to have and publish your opinion.

[Kaitain]

"In every age and every state, there has seldom if ever been a shortage of eager young males prepared to kill and die to preserve the security, comfort and prejudices of their elders, and what you call heroism is just an expression of this simple fact; there is never a scarcity of idiots."
Originally by Iain M. Banks, Use of Weapons

While the West enjoys good food, good clothes and good houses, the young hot-heads of the middle-east will look upon their meagre rations and feel hatred for the injustice that allows us to grow fat and them to starve. All figures like Bin Laden have to do is to provide an outlet for that rage.

The point is: poverty breeds fundamentalism.

Ironically, the US was the largest exporter of aid to Afghanistan prior to Sept. 11. Since the attacks, the US has all but halted routine aid supply, instead dropping useless ration packs from the air. The general population is expected to starve.

Osama bin Laden has already figured this: he's desperate to turn this into a religious war because in a fundamentalist system any of your side that die become martyrs. Eternal life in the lap of God? Who wouldn't want to become a martyr?

Be willing to go to war on rugged terrain just before winter, fighting against guerillas when your army has been proven useless in guerilla warfare? Be willing to die for the stars and stripes, when the nation it represents doesn't really care for you beyond that you pay your taxes?

There is never a scarcity of idiots.

[Maddman]

Or set home in our little holes and do nothing wimpering every time we get a terrorist attack aginst us, for no matter what we do the Bin Laden terror network will continue to carry out action aginst us. We are not boming anyboby and everybody over there. We didn't fly off the handle and attack blindly. We are taking out military targets so that Afgani freedom fighters will not get chewed when they take back their country and yes we are going after terror training camps. I don't like the fact that inocents are going to diebut we did wait 4 weeks so that the inocents could get away from the probable targets and we did give the Taliban the conditions under witch we would leave them alone. We repeated them many times never did we change them always were they the same as first we set them out. All they had to do was start to accede to the things that most of the rest of world approved of.

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by Maddman
We are not boming anyboby and everybody over there. We didn't fly off the handle and attack blindly. We are taking out military targets...

I honestly wish this was true, but it's not. Why??
It is not possible to guide a high speed missile with enough accuracy. That's why!

Why do things like this happen??

If "targets" like the UN office gets hit, what about other "no-name" houses... How am I supposed to belive that this was the only accident??

What are you ppl doing over there anyway, are you going to do exactly the same thing to the Afghan nation as you belive Bin laden did to the US !!???

The accuracy of current weapons is highly overrated to say the least. Let alone the fact that you also have to know your targets.
Sorry, this just doesn't work like it should.

I was mad when I saw the wtc attack, I could not do any work for two days...now I am getting mad all over again

[Maddman]

So what is are course of action. Do we set here and look the other way when next they attack. Do we just lock down nobody gets in nobody gets out. Do we just cut off all the aid that we give out just so we don't step on anyones toes. I know we can't launch weapons with the pinpoint accuracy that we would like but it is all we have. We are not targeting innocents. As was stated earlier what we are doing is no where as bad as what the Taliban is doing and has done in the past to it's own people. Unfortunatly terrorist's and barbarians do not respond to diplomacy.

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by Maddman
So what is are course of action. Do we set here and look the other way when next they attack. Do we just lock down nobody gets in nobody gets out. Do we just cut off all the aid that we give out just so we don't step on anyones toes. I know we can't launch weapons with the pinpoint accuracy that we would like but it is all we have. We are not targeting innocents. As was stated earlier what we are doing is no where as bad as what the Taliban is doing and has done in the past to it's own people. Unfortunatly terrorist's and barbarians do not respond to diplomacy.

Please do not take my post as a personal attack, I value your opinion and respect you choices.

We all belive you are not attacking innocent ppl on purpose, and you are doing all you can to minimize casualties of innocents. But the solution is not war.


You have to study carefully what you did in the first place to fill someone with enough hate to do something like the WTC attack, instead of yelling about crazy ppl. Terrorists usually do have a point to make. Instead of seeing the Muslims as aliens you need to study there culture and habits. You need to see the world from there perspective and learn to live with it. Remember the Israel vs Palestine, what is happening there. Why did this conflict immediately appear in the news after the WTC thing. Stop supporting Israel so firmly against Palestine. This is a good place to start learning..


STOP yelling Mr Osama bin Ladens name every time something bad happens. He is totally irrelevant in the big picture, just another @sshole on highway to *ell. When he is gone, there will be others. When the training camps in Afghanistan are destroyed, new ones will be created elsewhere. Can anyone say Iran, Iraq,Sudan, or even Pakistan or..??

You are just reacting to the situation. Pathetic politicians do not want to be considered cowards and yell war. Hell yes even over here in little Iceland with less than 300K ppl and only six cal.22 rifles politicians are supporting the "war". They are seeking the spotlight from the media and talk with deep tone about this horrible guy ObL... Same story all over the world, give the stupid voters what we have taught them to belive they want.

No politician is brave enough to look this problem in the eye and tell the truth.... Read Cloasters post above, then think and read it all over again. The WTC attack was done by ppl who had there own reasons, there families probably share there thoughts and views. Millions of ppl share there views too. You have to study what went wrong instead of whooping there @ss. Cause you are about to piss them all off.

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Allan Nielsen
You say "Destroy the countries, then help rebuild them."

I fear that you mean: "Destroy them, and then rebuild them the way WE seem fit, not neccesarily how the population wants it to be".

Admit it, we want others to live the way we do and even share our opinions. Sure, the Taliban is not acting in the best interst of its people, I cannot argue with that. But this is Afghanistan, what about about countries that already have "free" governments?

No, what I mean is disenpower terrorist, disenpower governments that aid and abed terrorist, and instate government that won't side with terrorist, governments that actually care about the citizens of these countries. I'd have no problem with even a communist government if that's what the people genuinely wanted. I just would like to see to it that these people have all the privileges and rights that they disserve, and that there government no longer aids terrorists.

The countries that "already have 'free' governments" that aid terrorism(there is a difference between aiding terrorism, and simply allowing terrorism to exist) might not require such a radical change in government, but they do need to be shown a "reform you ways now or else there will be hell to pay" type of message through our actions.

[Kaitain]

So what is are course of action.

Here are some plans of action.

* Nuke somebody. Anybody. It doesn't matter, so long as they're not American. You'll win votes that way.
* Send in a large ground force, helicopters, napalm and vegetation-clearing chemicals, and try to use conventional military tactics to fight guerillas before retreating in confusion to leave many dead, wounded and pows stranded. Oh, you've already tried that.
* Drop lots and lots of cruise missiles and bombs. Claim only to have hit military targets, and brand any pictures to the contrary as fake. Leave in false triumph before leaving the UN to deal with all the refugees. Now known as the Clinton Manoeuvre.
* Send in a large military force to remove the existing government, then put in place an American style presidency while leaving the place with no infrastructure and no chance to develop any. Claim the country owes you billions in debt and strip-mine them. It worked in Central America after all.
* Send in a large military force to remove the existing government, then withdraw in total disarray.
* Sponsor their arch enemies, enabling them to win. Be surprised when the people you put in power turn against you.
* Do any of the above. Be genuinely surprised that the entire third world hates America.

Other western nations (read: Britain) got involved with some of those - they are equally responsible. War doesn't work. It's high time the "civilised" west realised that.

Probably the best advised course of action I saw was for America to forget its blood-lust and conduct a major internal security review. Just for example:
* Security checks on luggage and people are not enforced on internal flights. A lot of smaller operators refused to implement such procedures on grounds of cost. Ironically, these are the same companies that are going bust due to falling demand for flights. If they'd had their metal detectors in place and turned on, the knives would have been found.
* The luggage x-ray operators were of pensionable age at Boston airport, and many were half blind. They only way they'd spot something suspicious is if it was red with a strap-on clock and Acme written on the side.
* Immigration workers were too tired/bored/p*ssed off to bother really checking passports that thoroughly.
* There are only two Arabic/Farsi/Pashtun speakers in the entire American security service (fbi/cia/nsa etc). Many intercepts still haven't been translated.

Use that vast defence budget to rectify those and other faults within the US first, then set about hunting down whoever committed the atrocities based on rational thinking and evidence instead of rage.

Sadly this disaster was probably preventable, but some bean-counter somewhere decided it was too expensive to bother keeping security tight. Time for a rethink of priorities?

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by Kaitain

Here are some plans of action.

* Nuke somebody. Anybody. It doesn't matter, so long as they're not American. You'll win votes that way.

* Send in a large military force to remove the existing government, then put in place an American style presidency while leaving the place with no infrastructure and no chance to develop any. Claim the country owes you billions in debt and strip-mine them. It worked in Central America after all.

AMEN to this.

Time for a rethink of priorities?

Yes start with your foreign policy in the middle east.

[cloasters]

The level of discourse in this thread gives me great hope. Thank you, every one!

I often don't give the man in the street enough credit. Many citizens of the US are asking themselves, "What's the truth, here? I want to know!" Perhaps we CAN see our evil little, oops, "our great leaders" for what they truly are. The emperor's clothes, indeed!
I hate to see so many people suffer because of the actions of so few. I guess power corrupts, period.

[Allan]

I generally agree with Eriksson and kaitan on this issue. I'll sum up my views here:

Terrorists = Bad
Removing terrorists = Good
Understanding why the terrorists are terrorists = Good
War = Bad
Tighten security = Good
Find some other way to fight terrorism = Good

[Allan]

Originally posted by dimmreaper


The countries that "already have 'free' governments" that aid terrorism(there is a difference between aiding terrorism, and simply allowing terrorism to exist) might not require such a radical change in government, but they do need to be shown a "reform you ways now or else there will be hell to pay" type of message through our actions.

And what happends if they decide not to listen to your demands? What if they actually don't like USA either, and can support the terrorists views, but not their actions?

Are you willing to go to war with all such countries that decide not to follow your 'orders'? That could be a mighty enemy in the end, you know.

Seriously Jeff, I respect your views on this, and I try to understand your anger. I just don't think war is the best solution in this case.

Think about WHY there are terrorists afterall? Kaitain and Eriksson have already mentioned lots of reasons for people to not like USA. Some middle east countries use propaganda to make USA the enemy above all. This is unfair, yes - but USA has not been all that innocent as a whole.

Terrorists appear because of some sort of suppression. They have lived like this all their life, and suppressing them even more won't make them change their minds, but will make their hate grown even stronger.

[Eriksson]

Interesting to see the news from this war, or rather the lack of news.

Remember operation desert storm, where CNN had constantly new "life" coverage. And actually lost it's creditability with biased or even false news directly from the allies.

Was it just coincidence that CNN almost turned the WTC - pentagon attacks into screensaver for weeks after the horrible event?.. Who actually runs CNN, who pays ??


Seems to me like we are not supposed to witness this new war, wonder why!?

[Daniel ~]

"It is not mentioned in the "Book Of Changes" (I-Ching) that the strong treads upon the weak, because it is taken for granted".

Please, my friends, let us remember that when we talk about these matters we are not talking about right and wrong in the same sense that we talk about what is right and wrong between you and I.

We are talking about POWER and it's uses. No power base in the history of the world ever willing give up it's power.
The first task of any power base is always to preserve itself.

It will do this by any means necessary. This is the brutal truth of our world. I find the BLACKEST possible humor in watching the Talban supporters protesting out presence in their country.

WE ARE BOMBING THEM! Do they think we care if it upsets them!

Holy war! Go for it! The USA will annihilate the middle East and anyone who gets in our way. In all out war and the ability to wage it the USA is unsurpassed in the history of the world.

And yes our allies might grumble but they will do as their own self-interests dictate, they want to survive, they will follow the dictates of POWER.

It was consummate stupidity to kill nearly 6000 US citizens and laugh, and claim GOD'S WILL. On Earth POWER is GOD'S WILL, However much this may make the angles weep.

Right and wrong doesn't enter into world affairs, or no child would go unfed, unclothed or uneducated.

Perception creates power as well as force. Of course the US will use these event to gather more power while "Wiping out world terrorism".

It is a power structure what do you expect?

I hate and despise MANY things my country has done throughout it's history. I hate and despise most of the people who have gained political power in my countries history.

I hate most of the people who have gained power in ALL the countries of the world, so rarely has right ever been done.

But no country that is capable of action would nor could refrain from action in these circumstances. This is an intelligence test for the Middle east. What is being determined is weather they are to stupid to let live.

Weather they will yield when try must to survive. All the crying in the world will not save them, they have awakened the dragon.

Will they now police themselves or will the US police them is the only question let to be resolved. The US will do ANYTHING to preserve it's power and the politics of that power demand retribution.

May God have Mercy upon us all for this is the world of men and angels only see what men must live and breathe.

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Allan Nielsen
Terrorists appear because of some sort of suppression. They have lived like this all their life, and suppressing them even more won't make them change their minds, but will make their hate grown even stronger.

I don't see how they can be any more suppressed than they already are! If we destroy there suppressive governments, and help the people form a new non-suppressive government, how can they be worse off? It would be easy for us to just stay out of it and let them do as they please, but then we will just find ourselves here again 4 or 5 years from now.

Here is what I'm thinking should be done:

1.Snuff out terrorist in Afghanistan
2.Snuff out the Taliban
3.Institute a government by the Afghan people, for the Afghan people.
4.Grant the new Afghanistan government a big fat financial aid package, and educate them on how to use that money to become self sufficient and to prosper. While resticting misuse of the moneys, and denying all military use of them.

That's all, I'm not saying "Kill innocent women and children, burn down the cities, and poison the water supply". There is a bit of a situation, why not attack the problem in a direct manner on all fronts.


Terrorist are using there country as a base of operations, destroy the terrorist.

They have a suppressive government, eliminate that government and grant them liberty.

They are poor! So give them money, help them to become self sufficient as a government and as individuals.


And Allan, my friend, I assure you that none of what I have said was out of anger. I feel no anger toward the Afghan people or government. I wouldn't mind see Osama Bin Laden's head on a plaiter, but that is besides the point, as I've wanted that since his attacks on our embassies in Africa.

[Kaitain]

Terrorists appear because of some sort of suppression

It's not suppression from on high that causes it. People in Afghanistan, as well as other poor nations, can see how much better our quality of life is. They compare that to their own struggle and they say, "hey, that's not fair!"

So they just feel hurt and angry by the injustice they see.

Now along comes a man with charisma. He's pleading a message the people want to hear. He's offering them a way out of their situation. He's promiising them a life in paradise if they follow his path - they will live in God's favour, by green trees and cool water, and all if they simply believe in "the true faith", following his "righteous example". This man isn't the first to do so (according to legend):

Moses did so: his people were oppressed by the Egyptians. The Egyptians controlled the money and the food. The Jews wanted it. So they worked as slaves.
Jesus did so: his people were oppressed by a Jewish king, though the Romans sent an emmisary to claim the area as fief-apparent, it was not annexed to the Empire for another three decades.
Mohammed did so: his people were scattered and fragmented. He stirred them up into a frenzy and started a massive empire that lasted several centuries.

Osama bin Laden is doing the same thing now. With every bomb, he wins a spiritual point. Difference is, he's not pleading a pacifist message for the benefit of all. He's pledging bloody destruction to fuel is own vendetta.

Nonetheless, his followers still see him as some sort of messiah.

On Earth POWER is GOD'S WILL

In God's name the WTC was destroyed. In God's name, the people accused of destroying it will attack. In God's name, the people who faced that attack will retaliate. In God's name, people will undo their God's work.

I'm an atheist, so I will try to skirt religious discussion. I will only go so far as to say that religion is a dangerous weapon: bin Laden is wielding it cynically. G W Bush is wielding it blindly. Blair is dazzled by it. All three terrify me with their own hysteria!

3.Institute a government by the Afghan people, for the Afghan people.

Check your history books. The American government aided the Taliban against the Mujehadeen (a communist regime - very violent) after it ousted the king of Afghanistan (now in exile). The Taliban turned bad. What's to say the next lot will be any better?

or will the US police them

The US has approached every conflict with such arrogance that they force even their allies to question them. To all Americans: what makes you think your culture is right? What makes you think it's the most just? Can you say there are no social problems within your borders? Do you honestly believe that you are the pinnacle of social advancement because you hide all prejudice behind the saluting of the flag and renditions of "the star spangled banner" and your people prostrate themselves in front of a wooden cross once per week? Do you honestly believe you know the whole truth about the decisions your government makes? Do you really believe you're a democracy?

America has rebranded "war" as an acronym. "We Are Right". And you believe it without question. You support dropping bombs with perhaps 70% accuracy on a nation that really cannot defend itself. All you are doing is creating martyrs. You are doing the terrorists' work for them.

The entire western world has some growing up to do. We all have to realise that we cannot afford to stand on the backs of others to reach our goal - they will throw us off with