The bombing has begun

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Daniel ~
Cultivate inner peace, it is the only peace there is.

But the cops already found my crops, uprooted them, and burned them . . . . Oh wait, you were talking about like spiritual stuff . . . . My bad . . . .

[cloasters]

Have I ever been punched in the face? Uuh, kat I must ask you who you think you're talking to. Yes, I've been punched in the face, yes my blood was spilled, and yes, I turned the other cheek. And yes, my nose required operating room surgery from this bit of fun.

And yes, I'm a veteran of our war upon the Viet Namese. Yes, I've seen burned and mangled pieces of people. Yes, I've been under enemy fire. And yes, I find your statement about me insulting and indicative of an attitude I find primitive and distasteful.

One of my duties as a human is to rise above the primitive impulses and reactions that make this world a very trying experience. I do my best. And I need to do better.

[Daniel ~]

We all need to do better.

[Kaitain]

This is not new this is Rome, this Persia, this is Greece, this is China, Japan, Germany, France, Russia this is the way of the world of men.....

...and nobody ever learns from history. Rome, Persia and Greece were destroyed by tribesmen who shook their fists and threw stones, after those empires stood upon them a little too hard, for a little too long.

Tribesmen can be quite scary - the British were soundly thrashed by the Zulus once

Of the empires you've listed, all of them have fallen (well, China is nothing like it was, anyway). Corruption did for France and Russia, and being squarely beaten by a larger empire sorted out Germany and Japan.

"help thy neighbor"

Yes, America and Europe. Help thy neighbour - stop kicking over their sandcastle if they don't play your game. Stop funding corrupt governments. Stop making them pay you money they don't have and you don't need. Stop exploiting their nations for resources you don't pay for. Start building farms, schools, hospitals and houses. Start paving their streets, piping them water and heating their winters. Start replanting the trees you stole; push back the deserts you created.

Give them the things that will make their lives comfortable, and they will no longer need to find solace in a man who promises violence and death. When their bellies stop rumbling, and the blisters on their feet heal, they won't have need to hate the west anymore.

Don't look for gratitude from them, though - we won't receive any. We of the west owe these people.

how much oil money do you think is going into those countries ? in my mind no one should be starving in any of those countries

Loads of money goes into those countries. Straight into their governments coffers, or the bank accounts of the wealthy elite. Normal people see little-to-none of it. Stop funding corrupt governments?

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by kat
Eriksson


Mr. laden ??

im sure that there were many people just like your self ,when Hitler was a big issue...Hitler who??

The fact that you are comparing these two makes me sad!
At the moment I am more concerned about the actions of your persident than of Mr ObL. At least does he have similar power as Hitler did.

[Maddman]

Hey I have an idea how about we just take back all the help we give every year and stay home then no one will have any reason to hate us. We will just ignore everyone and do nothing to or for anyone.

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by Maddman
Hey I have an idea how about we just take back all the help we give every year and stay home then no one will have any reason to hate us. We will just ignore everyone and do nothing to or for anyone.

I don't think anyone hate you for your help.

[Maddman]

I suppose I shouldn't take it so personal but I do live near where the Anthrax cases are and I also know that no matter what we do good or bad someone will hate us.

[Allan]

Originally posted by dimmreaper
I don't see how they can be any more suppressed than they already are!

The terrorists feel that the Western world is suppressing them. A new government in Afghanistan (perhaps a more 'Western minded' one) will make them feel even more suppresed. The Afghan people (not the terrorists) are suppressed by the Taliban, but I wasn't talking about the Afghan people, I was talking about terrorists. Taliban supports terrorists, as they both have some common goals.

Is this a freemdom fight for the Afghan people, or is this terrorist threat removal?

And Allan, my friend, I assure you that none of what I have said was out of anger. I feel no anger toward the Afghan people or government. I wouldn't mind see Osama Bin Laden's head on a plaiter, but that is besides the point, as I've wanted that since his attacks on our embassies in Africa.

I wouldn't mind seeing that as well my friend, I honestly believe he is a sick fundamentalist, yet he should not be under-estimated. He has shown before what he is capable of.

This has really turned into an interesting discussion, I like that! What I like even more is the friendly tone. We can still be friends even if we don't share each others point of views. Let us keep it friendly, and see if we ever finish discussing this! (Boy am I glad I have unchecked the 'email notification' option, lol - this is getting bigger by the day)

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by Allan Nielsen


This has really turned into an interesting discussion, I like that! What I like even more is the friendly tone. We can still be friends even if we don't share each others point of views. Let us keep it friendly, and see if we ever finish discussing this.

Agreed, good to find place for my rants
Gotta go water my flowers.

[cloasters]

If critical thinking is taught as part of public K-12 education in the USA, very little time is devoted to it. One or two hours, and badda bing our kids now have the tools to figure out who lies to them and what's really in their best interest.

It's a fact that a well educated citizenry is the greatest asset a nation can have. This is understood by nearly everyone, all around the world.

B-but, hold up a minute. Why are so many citizens of the USA so poorly educated? Where can the blame for this be laid? On the children themselves? I don't think so. On their teachers? It's tempting, but I don't think teachers are a realistic target for blame. On the parents of our children? Yes.

However, as more parents must spend more of their time working to keep the roof over their heads than ever before, they have less time to devote to their children. It's unfair to place all the blame on them.

We covered everyone that has primary responsibility for educating our children. As blame still needs assigning, where should it go?

To me, you and you. I must ask, "How much do we value children that aren't our own?" The instant response may well be, "children are the future of our nation. They are our most precious members of our society!"

This sentiment is at odds with reality. Caring usually costs money. How do we pay the school bus driver? This person has the power of life and death over our children, on every school day.

Maybe $12 per hour. Remember, this is a very inconvenient job. Two hours in the morning, then two hours in the afternoon. A split shift, every day. If you've never worked a split shift, you may not understand how nasty they are. Essentially, you work all day. Because the time between punching the time clock isn't really your own. Yet our school bus driver receives $48 from us for this. After FICA and taxes, it's not a lot of money.

"Well, they can get a job to fill in the time between the hours that they drive the bus." Yes, some can. But not all. Employers aren't famous for going out of their way to accommodate the needs of their workers. Even if the driver can find a second job that fits into his or her schedule, she or he now has two part time jobs. Think of the glorious health plan benefits! Zero.

And an adult can not live a halfway decent life on $12 per hour. No matter what the federal government insists is the "poverty line," it's fiction. Minimum wage? If any person responsible for setting the minimum wage ever actually worked for the minimum wage, I'd like to meet them.

How about the people that care for very young children because both of the child's parents work all day. We shower them with riches befitting the great responsibility we entrust them with. Minimum wage.
"Look, Mac. I work all day for $10 an hour. I can't afford to pay a childcare center $9 an hour!" Inarguable fact. The parent wants better day care for his or her child, yet is paid a pittance. Is that "tough love" in action?

Roughly five years ago, the City Council of Seattle realized that they needed to save some money. How? How will we do it?

"I know," piped up Council Member "B," we'll cut the salaries of the school road crossing guards!"
"Excellent idea," said the council membership. This money saving plan would cut the money that school crossing guards earned by 50%. When this concept was reported by the local news media, the citizens said "No" resoundingly.

The school crossing guards are senior citizens. Assuredly, the money they make before the proposed 50% cut is mighty little.

How much do we value other people's children?

[Daniel ~]

Originally posted by Kaitain

...and nobody ever learns from history. Rome, Persia and Greece were destroyed by tribesmen who shook their fists and threw stones, after those empires stood upon them a little too hard, for a little too long.

Tribesmen can be quite scary - the British were soundly thrashed by the Zulus once

Of the empires you've listed, all of them have fallen (well, China is nothing like it was, anyway). Corruption did for France and Russia, and being squarely beaten by a larger empire sorted out Germany and Japan."
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Daniel ~:

Yes POWER moved through them and left them an empty shell, POWER is always a corrosive force. Only after Power had done it's work did the tribesmen stand a chance. Remember, that Rome Subdued them before Rome aged, in her youth her organized brutality was unstoppable.
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Kaitain"

"Yes, America and Europe. Help thy neighbour - stop kicking over their sandcastle if they don't play your game. Stop funding corrupt governments. Stop making them pay you money they don't have and you don't need. Stop exploiting their nations for resources you don't pay for. Start building farms, schools, hospitals and houses. Start paving their streets, piping them water and heating their winters. Start replanting the trees you stole; push back the deserts you created."
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Daniel ~:

Historically, it was Europe that refused to renounce the "Spoils of war" after WW 1., leading directly to WW2. European history is a horror of betrayal and slaughter. Europe landed on this continent as a plague.

We ARE Europe and Asia, we did not just appear, we did not invent the cruelties that world history is made of. This is not an Amercian sickness of the spirt, this IS mankind. Has Europe forgotten so much so soon?

Who created the situation in Africa, Asia, The new world? Europe only morns it's loss of POWER and points it's crooked finger.

Were this otherwise America might be other wise.

The world is an old Whore come recently to a false religion of forgetfulness waging a syphilitic finger at her wanton daughter.


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Kaitain:

"Give them the things that will make their lives comfortable, and they will no longer need to find solace in a man who promises violence and death. When their bellies stop rumbling, and the blisters on their feet heal, they won't have need to hate the west anymore.

Don't look for gratitude from them, though - we won't receive any. We of the west owe these people."

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Daniel ~:

Then Give to Africa, then give to Asia, then feed South America?
Yes this is the duty of all Mankind!

That a single child is without these things is the shame of all mankind.

My point here is that the sinner cannot cast out sin. The Middle East is no less corrupt that the west. Just less able to feed that corruption.
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Kaitain:

"Loads of money goes into those countries. Straight into their governments coffers, or the bank accounts of the wealthy elite. Normal people see little-to-none of it. Stop funding corrupt governments?

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Daniel ~:
Things are no different here in the Americas. 95% of the wealth is in 3% of the hands. I'm sorry but you have mistaken us for a democracy.

We have the lowest infant survival rate of any 1st world country, lower that 1/2 the second world countries.

We have abandon the idea of a free and equal education of our people.

What does that tell you about where the real POWER resides?

POWER has it's way with us no less than it has it's way with the rest of the world in Ten thousand years our tears have not changed this.



So here we are at the breaking point of the wave of evil that drowns nations.

We see it rise up from it's bed of corupted history and approch towering in it's might. Dogs howl and women and children weep, the same as it ever was........

....Until the Gods tire of our blood.....

Waiting for a miracle.......

[Kaitain]

critical thinking is taught

AARRRGGGHHHH!! Brainwash! Brainwash! Critical thinking needs to be developed indirectly! Teaching people how to think is the first step towards total mind control! It's been a successful method employed by religion for centuries! AARRRRGGGGHHHH!!

This is at risk of getting long, so I'll be as brief as the laws of English allow:

* The Zulu tribesmen annihilated a couple of British regiments at the height of their military dominance. Remember, Britain was still the dominant empire in the world until 1918: America won its independence because Britain was unable to ship soldiers over fast enough. Any army, heavily outnumbered, will lose.

* Rome was repulsed by the iron age Britons. It had to come back for another go a couple of centuries later - by then they'd already poisoned the population with Christianity to soften them up a bit.

* We'll have to agree to disagree on the causes and effects of the two great wars: I'm sure the history you were taught suits American policy just as much as the history I was taught suits Britain. Suffice to say, the history I was taught showed that America only entered both wars after a very fat bribe, which actually came close to bankrupting Britain.

* Europe has forgotten nothing. It's possible, for example, for anyone in the EU to take a day trip to any European city - both the size of Europe and the political climate allow that - and in every city you will find relics of our shameful history. Fields of graves in Ypres, the bombed Cathedral in Coventry, bits of the Maginot line, bits of the Iron Curtain, bullet holes in almost every ancient building. We are constantly reminded of our shameful history.

* Because of the number of countries in and around Europe, foreign affairs are much more critical to us than they are to the US: we're in much greater danger of being invaded if we get it wrong. As such, over the last century, our attitude to other nations, war, tolerance of social change and other cultures has had to adapt to meet the expectations of our neighbours and of the rest of the world. In contrast, American policy hasn't changed much since (something like) twenty men sweated in a dingy room one summer and designed your government and constitution. It is still tinged with all the prejudice, Christian hypocrisy, social and racial intolerance that our 18th century ancestors gave you, and your ancestors enshrined in your constitution. Nobody in your government has seen fit to change it. My point is this: I agree that America inherited the legacy of Europe's sins. When America divested itself of European control it took responsibility for itself - why does America perpetuate the sins of its youth, and which Europe has since sought to remove?

Stop burying your head in the sand, saying "You're jealous and forgetful!" Europe remembers. It's changed. Why hasn't America? Europe points its "crooked finger" at the States, wagging, because America refuses to learn from the mistakes made here centuries before, and insists on making them itself.

It is an uncharacteristically defeatest attitude to put everything down to human nature. We can be better than that which came before; a line must be drawn somewhere. A balance must be struck between our form of government, our form of economy and our responsibility to life, humanity and justice. The systems of government and trade we have in place are at least two centuries old - they need to be reviewed and reformed to remove the rot that's set into all Western nations. We need to be reminded of our ideals, and our hopes galvanised so that people will once more strive to improve instead of sitting apathetically watching Jerry Springer and wishing for the good old days.

The middle east is clearly more corrupt - more people starve while fewer are richer - but there is no point in telling them to improve while we are barely better ourselves.

Our Western nations are growing up - it's time for them to put their toys back in their box, tidy up the mess they've left, wash their faces and sort out their problems in an open, rational manner. Too many problems have been swept under the rug and ignored in the hope that they'll go away, but they're still there. Problems like decay of our health and education systems. Problems like unemployment, homelessness, increasing dependence on benefits. Problems like having a government that increasingly puts itself before its people. Problems like the starvation of countries we've exploited. Problems like the destruction of our environment. All repairable. Time to get on with it and stop getting distracted by the toy guns.

[Eriksson]

Well said Kaitain.
Wow keep it up guys!!
This is getting very interesting.

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Kaitain
* Because of the number of countries in and around Europe, foreign affairs are much more critical to us than they are to the US: we're in much greater danger of being invaded if we get it wrong. As such, over the last century, our attitude to other nations, war, tolerance of social change and other cultures has had to adapt to meet the expectations of our neighbours and of the rest of the world. In contrast, American policy hasn't changed much since (something like) twenty men sweated in a dingy room one summer and designed your government and constitution. It is still tinged with all the prejudice, Christian hypocrisy, social and racial intolerance that our 18th century ancestors gave you, and your ancestors enshrined in your constitution. Nobody in your government has seen fit to change it. My point is this: I agree that America inherited the legacy of Europe's sins. When America divested itself of European control it took responsibility for itself - why does America perpetuate the sins of its youth, and which Europe has since sought to remove?

Who are you to judge us? Who are you to tell us that our government should be changed? Who are you to label us as "intolerant"? America is the land of tolerance!

I love my country! I love my countrymen! And I love our culture!

You say we should change. To you I say "screw that!"

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by dimmreaper
Who are you to judge us? Who are you to tell us that our government should be changed? Who are you to label us as "intolerant"? America is the land of tolerance!

I love my country! I love my countrymen! And I love our culture!

You say we should change. To you I say "screw that!"

I think we are approaching the roots of the problem here Jeff.
Keep up the spirit - and receive more disgusting terrorists attacks from ppl who doesn't like the attitude

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Eriksson
Keep up the spirit - and receive more disgusting terrorists attacks from ppl who doesn't like the attitude

Well we don't like the attitude of these terrorists either, so I guess this puts us in a "kill or be killed" scenario. In these scenarios, war, blood shed, death, and suffering, are the only tools of resolve. We are "damned if we do, and damned if we don't"; "between a rock and a hard place"; we must do what we must . . . . .


Not pretty, I know