The bombing has begun

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Kaitain

Simple: I'm not an American.

National pride is one thing, but you are not helping the development of your country by simply believing everything you're told and blindly accepting everything your country does. If the people don't call their government to account, then they become a dictated-to people, not a democratic people. If a nation can get away with telling its people lies that they don't question, then it'll abuse the POWER it has.

It's high time the people of America started to rock the boat. Call your government to account. It's there to represent you, not control you.

It makes me sad to see that you refuse even to acknowlege that there could even be the possibility of a need for change. At least look at the evidence. Debate it with us. If you find nothing convincing, then politely tell us so, but just saying:

does nothing to make me believe that you've even considered anything any of us have written. If your response is indicative of the typical American response (as I fear it might be) then no wonder lesser nations feel the need to resort to blowing up buildings to make themselves heard!

I considered everything you said, it was all so uneducated that is was laughable. You don't know what it is to be American. You do not know what it is like to live in America. This much is obvious from your words. We heard the ones who felt a "need to resort to blowing up buildings to make themselves heard", how can we give in to impossible demands . . . . we cannot. We drew our line, they drew theres.

Originally posted by Kaitain
Since when? Since half of it was racially segregated in an Apartheid style regime? Since it was the last nation in the West to abolish slavery. Since it has invaded any country much smaller than China which has dared to try a system of government that your own government doesn't agree with? Tolerance my arse!

There were many African Americans that were for segregation. And there were many European Americans that were against it. Segregation is a kind of tolerance, death would have been intolerance.

For every man that believed slavery was right, there was another who thought it wrong. For every cruel master, there was a kind one. Slavery is wrong, but we are all enslaved. Any man who labors for financial compensation, is a slave to the economy. Work or suffer the consequences, wether it be a beating, or starvation, what is the difference. There are no free men, there never will be.

We have never invaded a county simply because it dared to try a different system of government. I repeat, Never! I know you will say we did, but we didn't. I know you will give an example, I could even guess what example you will give, but I tell you that you are mistaken.

[kat]

so the war has begun , and we have a great deal of support from the world community,

my first question ...is the world community wrong? should we jump back on the fence and appease the few pacifist ...lets only go half way...Iraq

2nd question..

after the allied nations are finished kicking the crap out of the terrorist... killing or placing them in jail.. this I'm sure will take some time. will they bend to the will of the civilized world ?

3rd question... most of the wealth belongs to the few but the few provide jobs to the many

...I'm fairly sure that not every one can be rich?? being a person that provides jobs I have an inside line on this one..and I'm sure that I'm alone were this type of thinking is concerned ,,,,but here it goes,,,I evaluate each of my employees ,family ,distance they drive .level of intelligence and in general there basic needs , I also include in this process my own needs..so in so many words I attempt to balance my needs and the needs of the people that work for me so that both may prosper

4th question

is the US a bad place to live...its a bit expensive sure..but my streets are plowed , I have law enforcement to help me when I feel I've been wronged, if I'm disabled the people will provide for me (meager at best) and for the most part I want for little..in other word I don't have to stand in line...you know how much we hate that.....

5th question

witch isn't so much of a question, as it is a statement ....

I have every thing I need to survive ..and many things that I don't

four cars
big screen TV
4 computers
a home
two stupid dogs
and a **** load of tools that I will never use
and a great deal of family members that I can count on in times of need
and last ,but not least ,a government that will help me out ,if ,and when I can no longer do it for my self

if the rest of the world would bump up to this level.........

[dimmreaper]

The things Kat is talking about, is what makes America America. America is not a nation, it is not a culture, it is an Idea. As long as there are people to believe in this Idea, it will remain forever more.

God bless America, and God bless our allies too. It is in these darkest hours that the light shines brightest.

[kat]

thanks for the suport Jeff...

so little do i see people that are willing to stand on there own

[cloasters]

It's difficult to separate the leaders of a country from the people of the country. Is it necessary for the people of a country to feel threatened or insulted if the policies of that country's leaders are questioned?

If the leaders of a country further policies that hurt the people or the interests of the people of that country, is it forbidden to question the decisions of the leaders? Is national unity mandatory? Are those with doubts as to the wisdom of their leaders forbidden to raise their voices in question? If the answers are "yes," then I insist that the USA no longer exists.

Protest my statement as loudly as you wish. The louder this protestation, the more convinced I will become that those who deny any dissenters the right to speak up and be heard are themselves not convinced that the leadership of this nation is acting with the interests of the people of this nation in their hearts.

If you disagree with the path that the leaders of this nation are dragging you down, it is your duty to take your responsibility as a citizen seriously. It requires a lot of courage to speak out in protest of the actions of those that take no responsibility as a leader for your well being. They don't care about your country. Only their country, where evil, infinite corruption and utter disdain for the human race earn them praise from the company they find there.

[Allan]

America: A role model for some, something to look up to.
America: Hated by those who feel that the wealth of this so called "idea" is over the line.

I for one like America. I have never been there, but we support everything they/you do, and I really like some of your views. This doesn't mean that I cannot question some of the things you do, right?

As I said, I really like America - however, I can easily understand why some countries/people DO NOT. I think you need to consider WHY they do not like you. Denmark as high standards as America when it comes to most things. In some matters we are even above your standards, but that is another issue. I love my country, as much as you love yours. We all love our countries to some extent I think. Just remember that there should be room for all of us.

You are the only super power left in the world, no wonder some people don't like you!

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by dimmreaper
Well we don't like the attitude of these terrorists either, so I guess this puts us in a "kill or be killed" scenario. In these scenarios, war, blood shed, death, and suffering, are the only tools of resolve. We are "damned if we do, and damned if we don't"; "between a rock and a hard place"; we must do what we must . . . . .


Not pretty, I know

Ok Are you telling me this is the general idea in the states??
All I can ask it this; Did some innocent American ppl get killed in the WTC attack then ???

If the American nation agrees with the course set by the government.. I can only tell you this. Next time I will not loose any sleep or work cause of terrorists attacks on the US.

Sorry Jeff this just doesn't make any sense to me, I though we were seeking a solution to the problem.

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by kat
so the war has begun , and we have a great deal of support from the world community,

my first question ...is the world community wrong? should we jump back on the fence and appease the few pacifist ...lets only go half way...Iraq

2nd question..

after the allied nations are finished kicking the crap out of the terrorist... killing or placing them in jail.. this I'm sure will take some time. will they bend to the will of the civilized world ?

1
I know how the interpretation from US authorities sounds like, "we got total support from the world community"
This is not direct lie, but not very true either. You got great conditional support from NATO + Australia. You got acceptance from Russia, and few Asian countries. China has hardly said anything, turning a blind eye really... Do not be to comfortable about this so called support....

No the world community is right, you just need to read the details.

2
I read quite interesting interview with former General in the Soviet army, he fought for several years in Afghanistan; he said the bombing of Afghanistan was useless, and any army invading the country would very soon face the same number of enemies as the inhabitants of Afghanistan. You are not going to eliminate terrorists this way, it is plain bs.... Tell me kat, how can you be sure you live in the civilized world ???

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Eriksson

If the American nation agrees with the course set by the government.

Last poll I read, 85% agree with the course of action as laid out by the President and his staff. Though I think different people agree for different reasons. Some want revenge. Some want to make an example out of somebody. Some just want to flex a little muscle "and show who's boss". Most I think just want to make sure this never happens again. I think the bottom line is that most Americans view this as an act of war, not just terrorism, and acts of war require military retaliation . . . .

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Allan Nielsen
This doesn't mean that I cannot question some of the things you do, right?

Sure your free to question us. Free speech is one of the founding ideals of America. Just don't tell us we are in the wrong, as some in this thread have chosen to do. Instead ask us if we are wrong. Make us question ourselves. Ask us about very specific things. But don't insist we are wrong, without first asking us, that's insulting . . . some people seem to have the opinion that America is not capable of governing itself. I myself am very politically active, and my neighbors are politically active. Americans care too much about this nation to take even the smallest, seemingly most insignificant, political decision lightly.

I voted for Bush in our last presidential elections, and I'm glad I did. When I voted for Bush, I did so because I felt he was better prepared to handle a military situation than Gore was(and many other reasons), I still think I voted for the best candidate.

From some of the film I've been seeing on CNN and BBC, I think we have half the Muslim world pissed off. I just hope we can get through this without causing world war 3. Heaven forbid, if there was a WW3, and the US was destroyed, the world economy would probably collapse and throw the world in to the next dark ages. I know I am not alone in stating that if my country calls me; I am prepared to fight, and die, for it.

[phendish]

Originally posted by dimmreaper
From some of the film I've been seeing on CNN and BBC, I think we have half the Muslim world pissed off.

Are you saying the Middle Eastern section of the world, where muslim is dominant, or the half of the Muslims?

To say that half the muslims are ticked off is a bit of a stretch. We're only hearing about a select few, which are reported to us through biased media. While I don't doubt that there are extremely angry muslims, and quite a few of them at that, my guess there are more that are angry with the Taliban and followers of political thought.. The Taliban and the terrorists have practically ruined the good name of the Muslim religion. Muslim doesn't teach to harm or kill, it's the Taliban's political standpoint that does. Unfortunately, most who take the political standpoint claim to be Muslim.

This entire ordeal is a sad, stressful, and confusing thing for all of us, no matter what side we are on or what we believe.

[dimmreaper]

There are many faces to Islam. Just as there are many faces to Christianity.

At one end of the spectrum, some claim to be Islamic, and are just hypocrites. These are the ones who will do things "in the name of Islam" that are just not Islamic things.

At the other end of the spectrum, are the true Muslims, the ones who have a high regard for human life, the ones who love there neighbors.

[Eriksson]

Originally posted by dimmreaper
Sure your free to question us. Free speech is one of the founding ideals of America. Just don't tell us we are in the wrong, as some in this thread have chosen to do. Instead ask us if we are wrong. Make us question ourselves. Ask us about very specific things. But don't insist we are wrong, without first asking us, that's insulting

Sorry If I insulted anyone.

FYI there are countries in the world that have had free speech since the time before the discovery of America.

But let's ask some questions then.


1
Is it possible that your foreign policy in the middle east has something to do with the attacks?

2
Is it possible that this problem might be solved without war?

3
Are you reading unbiased news about the situation, and if so from where ?

4
Does the Russian experience tell us something about this new war?

5
Is it possible that your opinion about ObL is not accurate?

6
Will anything better take place after the Taliban in Afghanistan?

7
Am I supposed to belive the media after total screw up In the Gulf war?

8
Why is it essential to limit news-flow from Afghanistan to the US and the rest of the world ?

9
What is it you are not supposed to hear/see in the news?

10
Has anyone heard the demands from ObL, what does he actually want, do you know that? Or is he is just plane crazy?

11
How many ppl got killed in the Gulf war... anyone?

12
What is the Gulf war syndrome, and why?

13
What are you still doing to Cuba btw.

[Kaitain]

Now for some reason, I couldn't get on to aoa from work today. Last night, I overlooked a few posts by accident.

Free speech is one of the founding ideals of America. Just don't tell us we are in the wrong, as some in this thread have chosen to do.

First up, that's self-contradictory. If a person's free to make a point, then they're free to tell you when they think you're wrong. It is after all an opinion, which (apparently) we're free to post here.

I'm sorry that I've offended you - that was not my intention. It's fairly normal for me state my point as explicitly and directly as I can - that includes stating any problems I perceive. Next time, please tell me when you find something offensive - either openly or by pm - so that I can change my approach.

Now if this thread hadn't existed, if somebody had asked you directly whether you thought American foreign policy was unjust, would you really have said "yes"? From the outside looking in, many people of many different nationalities have seen a problem: remember, the appearance of being kind, fair and just is probably more important than actually fulfilling those criteria.

Americans care too much about this nation to take even the smallest, seemingly most insignificant, political decision lightly

I don't mean to stir up another argument, but I remember watching the American election count (I had too much coffee the day before - couldn't sleep) and the voter turnout was absolutely abysmal. Politically active people like yourself, dimmreaper, are a credit to your nation; why are so many people so disinterested in who actually runs them? Here in England, the situation is no better - I watched that count as well, because I'm interested in British politics - with only 2/3 of voters turning out nationally.

Both of these countries are perfectly capable of governing themselves, but the people who couldn't be bothered to take an interest when things were less important lose the right to complain when they don't like what they see.

we have a great deal of support from the world community

North Atlantic Treaty nations are obliged under an article (4 or 5?) to treat any act of terrorism or war on one member state as an act of war on all member states. Until America invoked this article, Germany and esp. France were strongly opposed to military action. Australia is bound by the rules of the Commonwealth to support Britain's stance, although it's not obliged to lend its military. I believe NZ is the same, too.

China has never really participated in world affairs. As the last surviving strong communist power, it's got some work to do to keep its own paradigm secure.

Much of the Arab world is prepared to lend its support in terms of land and resources to the Americans, whether out of fear of America's military anger (You're either with us, or with the terrorists) or out of dislike of the Taliban. However, they are making lots of noises to the effect of "don't make this a war with Islam!" A lot of President Bush's speeches have described this as a "crusade". Coupled with a lot of "God bless America" style statements, its appearance could be construed as a Christian vs. Islam thing. (I'll temper my wish to go off at a tangent in favour of seperating religion from state )

Of the nations on whose military you can call, only Britain gives its support willingly - that's a government down decision, and I'm seriously not happy about that!!!

As I said, I really like America - however, I can easily understand why some countries/people DO NOT. I think you need to consider WHY they do not like you. Denmark as high standards as America when it comes to most things. In some matters we are even above your standards, but that is another issue. I love my country, as much as you love yours. We all love our countries to some extent I think. Just remember that there should be room for all of us

Agreed - my thoughts exactly

You confuse teaching people HOW to think with teaching people WHAT to think. People always want to learn what to think. Only a very few ever want to know how to think. You should find a wide audience

As indeed should you
The danger in teaching people how to think is that you end up teaching them a particular method by which to approach a given concept. If people all follow the same method, then it is increasingly likely that they'll reach the same conclusion from a given set of input (I hate that word ). Under those circumstances, if you control, or sponsor, the information, then you can determine much more easily how they'll react. It becomes a much more subtle way of controlling what people think. Humans reduced to computers...

Yours is the language of confrontation, accusation,
I have repeatedly sought common ground, you have repeatedly sought division and victory

Actually, Daniel, your posts in response to mine have been equally divisive and confrontational. If common ground had made itself apparent, we would both be on it now, looking at solutions instead of trying to twist one anothers quotes.

it was all so uneducated that is was laughable

Uneducated, or just opposed to your point of view? If I don't know what it's like to be an American, then educate me, that I may form better arguments in the future. Alternatively, have the grace to accept criticism of your government without making a personal issue out of it.

Segregation is a kind of tolerance

If there's logic in there somewhere, I'm still looking for it. Would you explain, please? FYI, I was born in South Africa and spent a long time there before moving to the UK - I have some pretty first-hand experience of what segregation does to a nation, and believe me, none of the losing side supported it. Very few of the winning side did, either - just that the few who did had bigger guns.

We have never invaded a county simply because it dared to try a different system of government.

Cuba, Korea and Vietnam. All part way through a communist revolution, all interfered with by America, whose government at the time was distinctly anti-communist. Unless you can tell me what the real reasons were? All ending in terrible loss of life for American soldiers, and not all that much success.

If the high command were so convinced that communism was a bad thing and destined to fail, why sacrifice young lives to it?

Why sacrifice young lives to Afghanistan? The security loopholes the terrorists exploited can be plugged. Is this not of higher priority than sending out the bombers? Is it really wise to send your military forces out to chase spectres, when the people at home are still vulnerable to bombing and biochemical attack?

I am strongly opposed to this war for two reasons:
* Afghanistan is already destroyed. It has nothing worth bombing. The few military installations there are, are so feeble as to be useless. The potential human cost of doing it more damage is far worse than the 7000 lives lost in the WTC. You're chasing terrorists, not a standing army. Terrorists look like everybody else - they go home at night, live with their families, do family type stuff. Nothing marks them out. To guarantee you get them all would require you to engage in the genocide of the entire Afghan population. Is that really what you want?
* You still have homework to do. What actions are being taken to prevent another serial plane hijacking? What precautions are being made against the possibility of terrorists entering the country? Has security on internal flights been implemented yet? What is more important? The freedom and safety of the American people, or the bombing of not a lot of rubble?

There are many faces to Islam. Just as there are many faces to Christianity.

I read somewhere very recently, a statement to the effect of, "if a person were a true fundamentalist - if they followed all the fundamentals of their religion, then that person would be a meek, polite pacifist." I'll see whether I can find the link.

Anyway, I'm having a weekend in the countryside while there's still some left. See you all on Monday

[dimmreaper]

Originally posted by Kaitain
First up, that's self-contradictory. If a person's free to make a point, then they're free to tell you when they think you're wrong. It is after all an opinion, which (apparently) we're free to post here.

No it is not self-contradictory. We are all free to make a point, but I would prefer it if we would do so without being rude. That was the point of my statement.

Originally posted by Kaitain
I don't mean to stir up another argument, but I remember watching the American election count (I had too much coffee the day before - couldn't sleep) and the voter turnout was absolutely abysmal. Politically active people like yourself, dimmreaper, are a credit to your nation; why are so many people so disinterested in who actually runs them? Here in England, the situation is no better - I watched that count as well, because I'm interested in British politics - with only 2/3 of voters turning out nationally.

Both of these countries are perfectly capable of governing themselves, but the people who couldn't be bothered to take an interest when things were less important lose the right to complain when they don't like what they see.

I don't think its fare to conclude that because many people don't vote that they don't care. Many people my have been busy with other things, that at that moment we very important. Many people may have forgot to vote. And many people might not have had transportation to a voting booth. There are many many reasons why some people might not have voted. I don't think many didn't vote because they just didn't care.

Originally posted by Kaitain
Uneducated, or just opposed to your point of view? If I don't know what it's like to be an American, then educate me, that I may form better arguments in the future. Alternatively, have the grace to accept criticism of your government without making a personal issue out of it.

As I said before, America is an Idea. It can't be taught, it must be experienced. I could try to teach you, but the Idea would probably be lost in the words.

Originally posted by Kaitain
If there's logic in there somewhere, I'm still looking for it. Would you explain, please? FYI, I was born in South Africa and spent a long time there before moving to the UK - I have some pretty first-hand experience of what segregation does to a nation, and believe me, none of the losing side supported it. Very few of the winning side did, either - just that the few who did had bigger guns.

As I said, death would have been intolerance. You must also remember that the entire US was not segregated, only a small fraction of it. And as I said, there were African Americans that were for segregation.

Originally posted by Kaitain
Cuba, Korea and Vietnam. All part way through a communist revolution, all interfered with by America, whose government at the time was distinctly anti-communist. Unless you can tell me what the real reasons were? All ending in terrible loss of life for American soldiers, and not all that much success.

You make it sound like we barged in to stop these countries from choosing communism. This was not the case. We involved ourselves because there was pressure on these nations by communist nations. Our intention was to allow these countries to freely choose there type of government, rather than being forced to communism by outsiders.

Originally posted by Kaitain
If the high command were so convinced that communism was a bad thing and destined to fail, why sacrifice young lives to it?

Communism was/is destined to fail. One of the problems with communism is that it spreads, like a disease. One nation becomes infected, and feels the need to infect others. We were never really against communism, but rather its contagious attribute. If communism were allowed to spread, it might have found it's way to American soil.

Originally posted by Kaitain
Why sacrifice young lives to Afghanistan? The security loopholes the terrorists exploited can be plugged. Is this not of higher priority than sending out the bombers? Is it really wise to send your military forces out to chase spectres, when the people at home are still vulnerable to bombing and biochemical attack?

I think the Idea here Kaitain, is to attack this on two fronts. Bombing is easy, it takes little effort to start bombing the hell out of a small country. Reforming security is a much bigger undertaking, it will take months, if not years, to get this country safe. Personally, I'd like to see the militarization of the US border patrol. If people can not cross the border in a legal manner, they should be shot for attempting illegal entry. Sounds barbaric perhaps, but many nations function this way. I'd also like to see identification check points when crossing state and national borders(persons found with overdue visas should be detained and later deported). I'd like to see a national database, one that will allow different branches of the government to share information about indeviduals. I'd like to see a lot of changes, too many to list in fact. I think every American wants to see some changes made to secure our nation, but realize that these things take time to implement.