The bombing has begun

[Kaitain]

I don't think its fare to conclude that because many people don't vote that they don't care.

I based on the limited (probably highly censored and Euro-centric) evidence I've seen, it turned into something of a popularity contest between Gore and GWB among the "great unwashed," and you have to admit, neither of them is that charismatic

And as I said, there were African Americans that were for segregation

I might just be letting my own personal demons get to me, but I find that a most horrific statement. It must have been a very limited number of corrupt --- who got fat of the subjugation of their peers. There was a family like that in ZA, too. They were puppets of the Boer government, and were well rewarded for it. (FX: Goes off to shoot cans for a while)

You make it sound like we barged in to stop these countries from choosing communism

That's how it was represented in my (highly censored and Euro-centric) history lessons. I'm sure the truth is probably somewhere in the Bermuda triangle between your truth, my truth and their truth.

Bombing is easy, it takes little effort to start bombing the hell out of a small country.

And it's great, because when you see your country's military forces going in all guns ablaze you can't help but want to wave a flag, sing the national anthem and forget the woes of your own world. This is probably why Tony Blair is so keen to join in military "retaliation": what a way to prop up his failing government!!!

Personally, I'd like to see the militarization of the US border patrol. If people can not cross the border in a legal manner, they should be shot for attempting illegal entry. Sounds barbaric perhaps, but many nations function this way. I'd also like to see identification check points when crossing state and national borders(persons found with overdue visas should be detained and later deported). I'd like to see a national database, one that will allow different branches of the government to share information about indeviduals. I'd like to see a lot of changes, too many to list in fact. I think every American wants to see some changes made to secure our nation, but realize that these things take time to implement.

A lot of people here want to see something similar, but history's got there first again:
* France, before WWI tried to militarise its border, but the amount of border compared to the size of the country made it impossible to be everywhere at once. As Maginot discovered, any gaps in the line can be exploited.
* There's a minor problem with shooting people for attempting illegal entry: the Geneva Convention. America are signatories - you are obliged to give immigrants and asylum seekers a fair hearing. Remember, all asylum seekers travel illegally.
* Is it possible that the national database of information could be abused? I'm rather happy that the police can't see my tax details and medical records, the tax office can't see my immigration history. What would happend if your employer got hold of any of this?
* The identity card system was abolished in the UK because it was felt to disimprove relations between the police and the public. I believe only Germany has a really effective ID card system over here (because they've merged it with their passport and driving licence, so it's not perceived as a controlling method)
* These are just points where they've been tried before - not criticisms, just that it hasn't been made to work before. Want to try?

Just for fun:

Come friendly bombs and rain on Slough
It isn't fit for humans now
There isn't grass to graze a cow
Roll over, Death.

T.S. Elliot (I think)

Never believe any political authority, sounds more like it. Every instruction has it's own vested interest.

(FX: dances round and sings) Common ground!

Right, I'm off before this country air gets to me

[cloasters]

Whom do you trust? The developed world is very complex, we are bombarded with information 24/7/365. In the end you have only yourself to rely on. John Donne's "...no man is an island.." is as true now as it was when he wrote it, ~500 years ago. We are social creatures, and isolation drives a person crazy. Trusting no one other than yourself makes for a very lonely life.

We do our best to bring people that we trust into our lives, yet you are the only person who cares about yourself--in the sense that nobody else cares as much about you as do you. Our biological imperatives dictate that our own survival comes first. Our time is limited, so caring for another's well being as much as we do our own can be seen as a heroic act. And mothers do this every day. Their biological imperatives are different. Humanity would have perished long ago if this wasn't true. Mother's Day should be marked on the calendar!

Choosing our political philosophy is not a process of logic. We certainly like to believe that the exersize of reason led to our choice of political sympathies. I don't think this is true. Political decisions are driven by emotion. If this were not so, why would some people rather die than be "converted" to a different school of political thought? If they were driven by logic, aided by our biological imperatives, the reasonable response to an order to kiss the new flag or die would be, "I have seen the error of my ways. Please accept me as a true believer in your superior political logic!"

Nonetheless, some people spit into the eye of the man holding the sword. And lose their heads. Surely such courage or stubborness must spring from a place more fundamental than logic.

Politics is a very strange human endeavor. Inescapable, even hermits feel the weight of the political system that surrounds them.

It all comes to power. It's addicting. More of it must be obtained! And it corrupts its addicts. It's interesting, at heart those that crave power over others seek mastery over themselves. Their failure to control themselves must be hidden from themselves by the manipulation of others. The political system that the power hungry operate within makes no difference. As the powerful can't succeed in mastering themselves, the frustration of acknowledging their powerlessness over their own little lives becomes keener with age. The evil that they do unto others increases. They'll never master themselves, therefore the little people will pay for it!

If you aid the powerful in their effort of domination you become a pet. If you provide great help to your fair leader, you become a favorite pet. Never an equal. Yet a plush dog house with a swimming pool, the right to mingle with all the best dogs and eat the best steaks are very attractive.
When all of the ordinary dogs cease their yapping and gaze upon you in fear and awe, can life get any better?

I can't answer that question for anyone but myself.

[cloasters]

dimmreaper, I ran across a page with some links to some news publications in the Mid East. As always, every editor and writer has his or her own axe to grind. If you read many sources of news and opinion, it helps sort the axes out. The Web page is down atm, so I'll list the links.

www.middleeastwire.com , www.bahraintribune.com , www.irna.com , www.tehrantimes.com , www.iraqipapers.com , www.jordantimes.com , http://star.arabia.com , www.dailystar.com.lb , www.gulf-times.com , www.ptimes.com , www.teshreen.com/syriatimes , www.turkishdailynews.com , www.gulfnews.com/news .

I've only checked out four of these newspapers so far. I was surprised at the lack of hatred for all things Western on their pages.