AOA Forums AOA Forums AOA Forums Folding For Team 45 AOA Files Home Front Page Become an AOA Subscriber! UserCP Calendar Memberlist FAQ Search Forum Home


Go Back   AOA Forums > Software > OS, Software, Firmware, and BIOS > Windows 8

Windows 8 Questions and discussion related to Windows 8


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 7th August, 2012, 06:01 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

GOOD GOD! Is really going to look like this!!??

People seem to be really unhappy with what shaping up on the MS desktop, After seeing this at OCmodshop...I'm not surprised!

Really? This is Windows 8?

Because "I" see it as the ultimate install app for Linux destros.

I'm Guessing windows 8 will install more Linux desktops than it does MS desktops...was that over the...wait for it...desktop?

*(I'm Sorry.)

...Just saying...is this butt ugly Chris Bard or does your momma use Mint 13? ":O}

Now here's the MS I've come to know and love...always looking out for ME!!

"When the consumer release came out some months back, some resourceful people out there did workarounds to enable us to load directly to the desktop. With the RTM release, that possibility is gone. Microsoft ripped out a bunch of code before sending W8 off for production to keep people from bypassing that moronic start screen. Sure, it’s fine to have a screen that is intended for touchscreen monitors that has apps for Microsoft stuff. But don’t force us to look at it first thing. It seems that Microsoft is dead set on shoving their GUI d**k down our throats. Why not just put a button somewhere to give us the option to see that crap?"

I can't resist providing my own answer to this...

Linux desktops LIVE to serve me. What ever my needs, there's a desktop somewhere trying with all its might to meet them.

MS Desktops have another purpose entirely. They just want to take my money and give as little as possible in return. Just my personal take on this...I'm sure there are other better informed opinions...But wouldn't you rather post yours instead of waiting for them to show up?! LOL
Attached Thumbnails
GOOD GOD! Is really going to look like this!!??-metro-start-screen-550x440.jpg  
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 7th August, 2012 at 06:27 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 7th August, 2012, 07:42 PM
Gizmo's Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
BassTeroids Champion, Global Player Champion, Aim & Fire Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Othello Champion, Canyon Glider Champion, Unicycle Challenge Champion, YetiSports 9: Final Spit Champion, Zed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Webb City, Mo
Posts: 16,178
Send a message via ICQ to Gizmo Send a message via AIM to Gizmo Send a message via MSN to Gizmo Send a message via Yahoo to Gizmo Send a message via Skype™ to Gizmo

If you recall, I commented about this problem a while back, but at that time, it was in respect to Gnome 3 on Fedora:

Quote:
So, where we once tried to force a desktop OS to work in a mobile environment, we are now trying to force a mobile OS to work in a desktop environment.
This is exactly what has happened with Windows 8. MS are getting their behinds pretty thoroughly kicked in the mobile space and are desperately trying to build an OS that works reasonably well in that space. To do this, they are pretty much sacrificing all current Windows Phone and Windows Mobile users (Windows Phone 7 will not be upgradeable to Windows Phone 8, and many apps will have to be modified to work at all with Windows Phone 8). On the other side, the new UI takes the 'tinkertoy' interface of WindowsXP to a whole new level.

Microsoft are sacrificing a lot to get to a single code base, and it is arguable whether that is a smart decision. As I mentioned in my other post, mobile and desktop OS's are designed to do different things. While there is some commonality at the lower levels that can (and should) be leveraged, the UIs are used in fundamentally different ways, and trying to force everyone into a "One UI to bind them" mentality is ultimately doomed to failure, IMO.

Fortunately for MS, they aren't the only ones doing this: most of the Linuxen have been heading the same direction for a while now, unfortunately. But at least in the Linux world, we have some ability to pick and choose.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 7th August, 2012, 07:57 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

It kinda strange and unusual,

MS wants on the one hand to be the one size fits all OS. Then They turn around and cut it up into pieces to sell at varying and obscene prices...."To fit your needs."

Then they shove the one size that fits almost no one down the throats of Desktop users... How many ways can they get this wrong?

At lest Linux doesn't ask us to pay for their mistakes, just asks that we enjoy their success.
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic


Last edited by Daniel ~; 7th August, 2012 at 08:00 PM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 10:24 AM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
But at least in the Linux world, we have some ability to pick and choose.
If you can be bothered to spend all that time ironing out all the odd quirks and kinks that each distro seems to bake in.

If you look at it from a business perspective, neither metro nor Linux desktops look great from the training perspective. Never mind the pain of supporting Linux - how many different kernels do you go through in a year?
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 04:05 PM
Gizmo's Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
BassTeroids Champion, Global Player Champion, Aim & Fire Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Othello Champion, Canyon Glider Champion, Unicycle Challenge Champion, YetiSports 9: Final Spit Champion, Zed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Webb City, Mo
Posts: 16,178
Send a message via ICQ to Gizmo Send a message via AIM to Gizmo Send a message via MSN to Gizmo Send a message via Yahoo to Gizmo Send a message via Skype™ to Gizmo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
Never mind the pain of supporting Linux - how many different kernels do you go through in a year?
That's really a wash, IMO. How many security updates do you get from MS in a year? And don't tell me they don't break things; I've spent too many sleepless nights figuring out why code started mysteriously failing only to discover that someone had installed a new MS update the day before which introduced subtle (and not so subtle) changes to the system.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 06:13 PM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

You've already encountered the issue with MS breaking things. That's just with a few revisions of an OS from a single vendor. What's it like when you have a bunch of different distros that have their own patches for things, and their own tweaks to the OS, and their own library issues?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Linux or Windows is better. There's just more pain when there's even less of the core of a system is static.
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 06:45 PM
Gizmo's Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
BassTeroids Champion, Global Player Champion, Aim & Fire Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Othello Champion, Canyon Glider Champion, Unicycle Challenge Champion, YetiSports 9: Final Spit Champion, Zed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Webb City, Mo
Posts: 16,178
Send a message via ICQ to Gizmo Send a message via AIM to Gizmo Send a message via MSN to Gizmo Send a message via Yahoo to Gizmo Send a message via Skype™ to Gizmo

I'm not sure that's necessarilly a valid comparison, for the simple reason that a corporate would standardize on a particular Linux, the most likely choices being Redhat or Ubuntu, meaning that they wouldn't have the headache of supporting multiple Linuxen. Much the same, really, as standardizing on Windows 7 or XP.

Now, they WOULD have to figure out the quirks of whatever Linux they standardize on, but that would largely be a one-time thing, just as with the switch from Windows XP to Windows 7. Further, if they went with a fairly stable distro like RH, they might actually be MORE stable than if they went with Windows (I don't have numbers to back that up, just throwing it out there as something to consider).

The fact is that in corporate environments (especially the large corps) they tie the desktop down pretty hard; not just OS, but what apps you can install and use, etc. There's no reason they can't do the same thing with Linux that they do with Windows.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 07:09 PM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

I wasn't thinking corporate - I was thinking tech support for a gaming company...
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 8th August, 2012, 07:15 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

If one OS MUST fit all and we all know that sometimes it does, Why not make that OS free? Why not have disinterested parties deciding what the next best move in that OS should be instead of MS accountants?

MS seems to offer little more than standardization, that Linux doesn't. standardized Linux would seem to take care of that...Yes? ...No?

Youth wants to know!! ":O}
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10th August, 2012, 06:21 PM
Gizmo's Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
BassTeroids Champion, Global Player Champion, Aim & Fire Champion, Puzzle Maniax Champion, Othello Champion, Canyon Glider Champion, Unicycle Challenge Champion, YetiSports 9: Final Spit Champion, Zed Champion
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Webb City, Mo
Posts: 16,178
Send a message via ICQ to Gizmo Send a message via AIM to Gizmo Send a message via MSN to Gizmo Send a message via Yahoo to Gizmo Send a message via Skype™ to Gizmo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
I wasn't thinking corporate - I was thinking tech support for a gaming company...
Ok, I thought we were still talking in the context of corporates. My bad.

I'm a little less certain of my footing on this, because my experience supporting applications on Linux is limited to source distros (Gentoo) or very tightly controlled RHEL environments.

For Gentoo, because it's a source distro, most all issues seem to be pretty resolvable with a revdep-rebuild if an 'emerge -uDN world' doesn't fix it. Note, however, that emerging like that really relies on you keeping the system pretty up-to-date; otherwise you may cause more problems than you solve, ESPECIALLY if you've gotten into the habbit of one-shotting packages with 'emerge -1 packagename' or something similar, or not emerginig dependencies.

For Redhat, because the environments I normally work in are tightly controlled (other than my Fedora lappy, which I don't game on), things tend to be pretty stable.

Now, qualifying my following remarks with the above, I'll say that I'm still not convinced it's that much of a chore to support Linux compared to Windows. Consider:

WindowsXP RTM, SP1, SP2, and SP3 all have their vagaries. Despite the fact they aren't supported by MS any more except for security fixes, they are still WIDELY used, and many games still run on them.

Then you've got Windows Vista RTM, SP1 and SP2, and Windows 7 RTM and SP1.

Add to that all the various security patches, updates, upgrades, etc. and you've got a not inconsiderable amount of work to make sure that things function properly.

And don't you DARE scoff when I bring up the different service packs on Windows. I've spent FAR to many hours writing code to work around the various stupid hacks that MS have put into Windows because their developer docs don't QUITE tell you the truth. While things have impoved with the advent of .NET (about the only good thing I have to say regarding that misbegotten abortion) as opposed to straight C/C++, there are still 'interesting' problems that come up.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 22nd August, 2012, 12:36 AM
booman's Avatar
AOA Staff
 
Join Date: December 2005
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 4,030

My work environment is mostly XP, but we have a growing amount of win 7 machines and a few lingering Vista machines. They all have their quirks with our legacy applications.
I, on the other hand, like to pick a distro and learn to manage it really well.
I don't imagine this would be great in a professional company but if it ran the applications we needed to use and we didn't have to update it every month, it would a possibility
__________________
Booman
Mint 17.3 64-bit
Wine 2.0
PlayOnLinux 4.2.10
Linux Guides: PC Games Linux Beginners Tips Linux Games List
Mack Truck Dungeon Of Fire Spray Booth Tutorial
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 22nd August, 2012, 08:52 AM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
Now, qualifying my following remarks with the above, I'll say that I'm still not convinced it's that much of a chore to support Linux compared to Windows.
Having spent far too much time trying to get things working under Linux, and battling the machine, I don't tend to agree on that. Don't get me wrong, I've had my share of battles with Windows, but it tended to be less protracted.

One of the more awkward battles (with Linux) was getting a display driver sorted under Ubuntu. The distro supplied driver had an issue in it that affected overscan. The nVidia driver was a pain to install in a way that didn't affect the distro - IE if there's an update, I was reverted back to the distro supplied driver, which took exception to bits of the updated driver being present and thus failed to work. Unfortunately, the standard text mode couldn't supply HDMI, so there was no video output from the machine.
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 22nd August, 2012, 04:55 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
You've already encountered the issue with MS breaking things. That's just with a few revisions of an OS from a single vendor. What's it like when you have a bunch of different distros that have their own patches for things, and their own tweaks to the OS, and their own library issues?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Linux or Windows is better. There's just more pain when there's even less of the core of a system is static.
Aidan, how does the fact that Mint is undertaking a 5 year support program for Mint 13 effect what your saying about long term stability...if at alll?

Will this help to ease the training requirments or are you speaking to another level of user acceptence?
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 09:15 AM
Chief Systems Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 13,075

Let me put it this way. You are a software vendor, who sells games. You support Windows and Linux. The fact that there's LTS versions of Linux doesn't mean a lot, as your users may or may not be using it.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see things supported on Linux, but for me Linux just feels too fragmented at the moment, with too many distros doing their own thing.
__________________
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 09:56 AM
chrisbard's Avatar
Benchmarker
 
Join Date: March 2003
Location: Earth
Posts: 8,252
Send a message via Yahoo to chrisbard

Unless they all stop saying mine is better (like the ppl in churches do) and unite under one Linux for all (which wont happen) they won't be having what ppl who are willing to spend some money will get from Microsoft or Apple! Being a Linux fan is like going to a different church every Sunday!
__________________
I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!


Last edited by chrisbard; 23rd August, 2012 at 09:57 AM.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 04:18 PM
booman's Avatar
AOA Staff
 
Join Date: December 2005
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 4,030

Yeah that seems accurate. I have two different churches at home then...
Mint & Fedora church.
I doubt there will ever be "One True Distro" for all of us, but I'm starting to realize that certain distros that focus on home/desktop use are going to be preferred over the others.
Specially because most home users do simpler tasks like internet, email, word processing, some games, music and watch movies.
Most distros can handle that easily, but only a few can make it easy for the standard user to setup and run.
__________________
Booman
Mint 17.3 64-bit
Wine 2.0
PlayOnLinux 4.2.10
Linux Guides: PC Games Linux Beginners Tips Linux Games List
Mack Truck Dungeon Of Fire Spray Booth Tutorial
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 05:36 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

I see two things that need to happen and are happening.

The first is divesity. Linux needs to contiune to have and express divesity, to explore every aveanue and expermeint with as many approaches as seems reasonable to the people doing the work at hand.

The Second is, is I think., well represented by the Mint project. Nail down what is known good, stable and of broad appeal. Stay with it and refine it over the next 5 years. Over twice the MS turn around.

Mint has shown me an extreamly stable desk top, again I recognize my useage is limnited and there are vast areas I have no interest in that may hide injurey for many in the future, but that would be true of any OS I used.

I really don't have a great deal of knowledge or understanding of these things.
But Mint has always worked very well for me. It has become my refuge...

Or as Chris might say....

"It gets me to the church on time!"
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 05:39 PM
booman's Avatar
AOA Staff
 
Join Date: December 2005
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 4,030

And it keeps you in church...
And it makes you want to go back...
As long as Mint keeps up the stablilty, support and compatibility, you will continue to be a regular church member.

By the way, create a Mint account on their community page and rate/review the products in the Software Manager. Its a great way to do-your-part to support good applications.
__________________
Booman
Mint 17.3 64-bit
Wine 2.0
PlayOnLinux 4.2.10
Linux Guides: PC Games Linux Beginners Tips Linux Games List
Mack Truck Dungeon Of Fire Spray Booth Tutorial
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 05:42 PM
Daniel ~'s Avatar
Chief BBS Administrator
 
Join Date: September 2001
Location: Seattle Wa.
Posts: 45,605

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
Let me put it this way. You are a software vendor, who sells games. You support Windows and Linux. The fact that there's LTS versions of Linux doesn't mean a lot, as your users may or may not be using it.

Don't get me wrong, I want to see things supported on Linux, but for me Linux just feels too fragmented at the moment, with too many distros doing their own thing.
What if Game devs started releasing the Games within a Linux format, Install the Linux you need when you install the game you want?

Could that work? I mean I see myself installing a game, What difference to me the user would it make If it also installed the OS the game needs to play properly?
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

[img]/forum/attachments/random-nonsense/16515-sigs-dan_drag.jpg[/img]
Subscribers! Ask Pitch about a Custom Sig Graphic

Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 23rd August, 2012, 05:49 PM
booman's Avatar
AOA Staff
 
Join Date: December 2005
Location: Mesa AZ
Posts: 4,030

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
What if Game devs started releasing the Games within a Linux format, Install the Linux you need when you install the game you want?

Could that work? I mean I see myself installing a game, What difference to me the user would it make If it also installed the OS the game needs to play properly?
Developers are already doing that. There are a bunch of Indie developers who release a native Linux version of their game along with Windows and MAC versions.
There are even a few Linux only games, but not in high demand.
The only problems I see is the drivers, OpenGL and libraries required for the game. That would be the crutch people don't want to deal with.

I've had problems with certain games because I didn't have the Alsa audio package or newest OpenGL update or even the newest Java plugin.
Sometimes its hit & miss.
But I'll tell you what... Windows & OSX have similar problems. Not as common, but I've had problems with audio and installing/running games too. They are a bit similar to fix because you don't need a step-by-step command line tutorial.
That is slowly changing with Linux.
The more of us who start using Linux the better it will get!
__________________
Booman
Mint 17.3 64-bit
Wine 2.0
PlayOnLinux 4.2.10
Linux Guides: PC Games Linux Beginners Tips Linux Games List
Mack Truck Dungeon Of Fire Spray Booth Tutorial
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good Times, Good Food PorPorMe Random Nonsense! 1 28th July, 2008 07:32 PM
Have a good one aghastpumpkin Random Nonsense! 3 24th December, 2005 11:15 PM
A good vocabulary is a good thing. mookydooky Mookydooky's Just for laughs! 0 16th February, 2003 11:19 PM
A good laugh at a Misfortune of a good friend! The Spyder AMD Motherboards & CPUs 11 22nd March, 2002 01:05 AM
Good Day, Good Night, and if I don't see you, Good Evening Pinky Random Nonsense! 5 2nd November, 2001 10:41 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:28 AM.


Copyright ©2001 - 2010, AOA Forums
Don't Click Here Don't Click Here Either

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0