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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20th May, 2005, 07:08 AM
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Venice o/c problems!

Hi,

Just received a Venice 3200+ and two Corsair CMX512-4400C25PT DIMMS today.

Installed them into a just built Asus A8V Deluxe (VIA K8T800Pro) with decent but generic 350W supply, Seagate 120GB Barracuda, DVD drive, and an old Stealth PCI video card.

Fired it up, installed WinXP SP2 and it ran perfectly up to 244MHz HTT (AGP/PCI locked at 66/33). From there it was a battle requiring voltage increases on both memory and cpu to 2.8V DIMM and 1.575V core at 2.52GHz (Command has to be 2T). Around this level I noticed the original 11.98V on the +12 had dropped to more like 11.15V.

Given the memory is rated for 275MHz (2.5,4,4,8) and the actual "auto" settings are 2.5,3,4,8 (CPUz) plus the cpu is only around 34C at 2.52GHz idle (43C at full load), I'm wondering if the problem is actually the power supply.

If that's probably it, any comment on the CoolMax 550B 550W? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817159026

Since my current supply is rated 16A +12, I'm thinking doubling that to 35A should be a good move.

I was also thinking of the ePower Tagan TG-480 480W -- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817101509

But the +12 is rated at 28A which seems less safe a bet.

If there is something else I may be overlooking or alternative PS choices, I'd appreciate hearing. Naturally, I was fully expecting to get 2.8GHz like all the examples I read about, but it isn't looking too good at the moment.

Thanks -- Trevor
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Last edited by TrevorS; 20th May, 2005 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 20th May, 2005, 09:21 PM
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According to Corsair's test info, they ran the DDR550 to 275MHz at 2.75V with 2.5-4-4-8 timings. That being the case, my 2.8V should be fine, so I guess that points to the power supply or processor or both as the hang-up. In absence of any responses, I've ordered a CoolMax 550B. It'll take a while to arrive, but hopefully that will remove the road block.

-- Trevor
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Old 23rd May, 2005, 11:50 PM
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It shouldn't be this way, but high performance RAM can be very choosy about what m'boards it likes. Any progress with this dual-core(wowsa!) bad boy, TrevorS?
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Old 24th May, 2005, 01:32 AM
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Hi, thanks for the note.

Actually the Venice is the new 90nm single core A64 that picks up the SSE3 instruction set. Not that I'm concerned with SSE3, but I WAS looking forward to running it up to 2.8GHz . I would love to have been playing with a dual core instead, but I understand the Desktop version (s939) won't be showing up 'til the end of summer.

The Coolmax supply arrived today and I swapped it in, but the 12V reported in at 11.247V, which is also too low (ATX spec is +- 5%). I tried dropping the HTT to 200MHz and that gave me 11.308V, which is virtually identical to my other Asus A8V Deluxe build (got the second board refurbished and saved a pile). That was just a little too suspicious a coincidence so I checked the BIOS Hardware Status voltage readings and found the reporting program was severely understating reality. The other voltages report fine, but the +12V is way off.

I also noticed horizontal noise bands traveling up the monitor that I'd never noticed before. After identifying the reporting utility error, I swapped the original 350W supply back in and the noise bars disappeared. So that's both the first and last Coolmax supply I'll be getting involved with. It's boxed with an RMA for delivery to UPS tomorrow.

So knowing the voltage wasn't sagging the way I thought, I went back to testing and found I needed a core voltage of 1.6V to hold 2.55GHz. (No sign of further memory problems with the DDR set at 2.8V.) As I inched further up, I found 1.65V was needed for 2.58GHz, but not even 1.70V could achieve 2.59GHz. Since the spec voltage is 1.4V for Venice, it looks to me the air cooled to 2.8Ghz scenario is hopelessly out of reach. So much for Venice

In any case, it's running stable at 2.55GHz with 100% load and a reported temp of 45C. The supply voltage is well within the +-5% tolerance according to the BIOS, so I guess there's no need to upgrade the supply after all. Hopefully I'll get a refund on the Coolmax without any problems.

Sigh -- Trevor
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Last edited by TrevorS; 24th May, 2005 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 02:57 AM
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Not necessarily. By definition, when you are looking in the bios, the CPU is idling. In my experience, there is a huge shift on the power supply's 12v line when the CPU is under load. I've seen decent PSUs go from 11.98v to 11.2 in about 2 seconds when running folding or prime. Check your 12v line while in windows. Keep an eye on voltage and load up the CPU. If you see very large swings, your problem is most likely the PSU. A reasonable swing might be 12.0v to 11.8v. More than that and your PSU can't handle the draw. Don't give up too easily. Good luck.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 03:50 AM
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Thanks Steve,

Just discovered something else. It finally occured to me that since I have high speed DDR, I could just drop the multiplier and push up the HTT. So I did, and the HTT went up very quickly, but suddenly it stopped working, and then I got pushed all the way back down to my starting point. The only way I can interpret that was it took a little while for the RAM to heat up, but once it did, it stopped working. So maybe the Venice chip isn't actually the issue after all, though it seemed to respond to increasing its voltage. Guess I should try to configure a fan to blow directly over the RAM heat spreaders and see what that produces.

This is my first exposure to high performance RAM, so this is all touchy-feely for me. Does this situation seem familiar to anyone?
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Old 24th May, 2005, 05:08 AM
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Well, I jury-rigged an 80mm fan just above the base of the 3.5" bay angled up and slightly in to sweep the two DIMMs (one in each channel). The fan feeds from the bottom front vent slot. I set HTT to 260MHz and the multiplier to 9.5 (spec is 10) and it seems to be holding with 100% load.

OK, just picked it up to HTT of 265MHz -- still 100% load.

Next, at 268MHz, the memory dies. So I rolled back and tried to bring up the Venice, but it still falls apart as it approaches 2.6GHz (multiplier of 10). So I guess the CPU really is fruit loops, but active cooling can save the day with the memory. The fan I'm using is a fairly low speed quiet fan and so it looks like I have a trade off question between noise and memory speed. Perhaps a 120mm with sub 30 dB noise would work (harder to mount though).

Just had a memory failure so down to 264MHz (Edit: appears this "memory" failure was more likely the CPU voltage being too low). Need a good after market cooling solution for DIMMs, heat spreaders alone clearly don't do it.

Steve -- that's a good point on the +12 loading following boot. I wasn't thinking about it, but the machine goes to 100% load as soon as Windows boots, and that certainly could explain some of that voltage drop. I just now tried toggling the loading utility and the voltage changed from 11.308V to 11.187V. The single HD is spinning, but rarely seeks and so the drive and fan load is essentially the same whether it's in BIOS or Windows. Guess I'm just going to have to take the volt meter approach to checking the +12 (probably should have done that at the beginning).

-- Trevor
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Last edited by TrevorS; 24th May, 2005 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 07:16 AM
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Drop your multi down to 6 and the LDT multi to 3, and push it up.

If those 12v readings are correct, then your PSU is a definate limitation. a 350w PSU is NOT enough, IMHO. Start looking at the 520w and up, and SLi certification is a good thing, as this means the 12v line can handle the load of 2 GPU's AND a FX-55, @ 105w, or some crazyness like that. Even a 3000+, @ 2.6ghz, can draw upwards of 130w@ load...that 350 isn't looking like very much now, is it?
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Old 24th May, 2005, 03:52 PM
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Aw shucks, I was wrong about the Venice having dual cores. Sigh. Glad that TrevorS isn't sitting on his hands and wishing for a miraculous fix! TBH, a 350W PS is kinda old school for today's machines.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 07:00 PM
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Well, according to the VOM, the +12 is about 12.2V (always fun to go analog), and according to the DVM it's 11.91V. That's at 266MHz HTT and 2.53GHz cpu with the side cover off and probes inserted into a spare drive plug. (100% load as usual.)

Just for grins, I'll run it up a little and see what happens (it's a bit cooler in here today).

HTT 268MHz (raised core to 1.65V from 1.6V) +12 is 11.90V. CPUz says 2546MHz.

HTT 270MHz -- +12 is 11.90V, CPUz says 2566MHz.

HTT 272MHz -- +12 is 11.90V, CPUz says 2587MHz.

HTT 274MHz -- something is misbehaving and changing multiplier to 9.0 didn't recover, so returned to 270MHz settings to restabilize and try again with 9.0 multi. No, looks like the memory is calling a firm halt, so I'll leave it at HTT 270MHz and 9.5 multi for now.

The +12 showed a max DVM variation of 11.87 to 11.92 at 272MHz HTT. That's only .05Vpp so I doubt it's an issue. Looks like the 350W is doing OK so far (+12 rating is 16A).

I was hoping someone would have a good simple solution to my RAM cooling problem, but nothing was said. Oh well, first priorty is better RAM cooling -- that's an obvious bottle neck.

Final wrapup readings at HTT 270MHz:

Voltage reporting utility +12 -- 11.126V
DVM +12 -- 11.90V with .06Vpp max deflections.
CPU @ 2566MHz (1.65V core) 44C

Thanks -- Trevor

PS Cadaveca -- I'm not familiar with "LDT" multi, please identify.
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Last edited by TrevorS; 24th May, 2005 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 07:32 PM
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LDT is hypertransport speed. The multi designates how many streams of data are sent during a clock cycle.

The 350 should be ok, with just a plain pci vidcard, but once you add a x800 or 6800U, and start clocking it, power requirements jump substantially, and moreso with the nvidia card.

When you are running full load, what do you run? The program that you run can help you determine what the problem actually is. Prime95, with the settings set to run in place, and the max fft size set to cpu cache size, and the minimum of 8k, can test the cpu and it's meme contrller to the fullest, but that does not mean that your system will be 100% stable. Running heavy network traffic, or some 3d rendering, at the same time as running prime95, say, can put additionl power requireemnts not only on your PSU, but also on the boards PWM section as well. Depending on what you want from your machine, you need to use a suite of testing programs, and not just one. I cannot stress this enough.

All that being said, you've got some pretty good results. Your cooling will probably com into play at some point real soon, as you have found with the memory. The best advice i can give you is to find that stable point, let your pc run @ full load for a week or so continuous, and then try to go higher, especially if you have a new cpu.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 08:16 PM
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LDT is similar to FSB. Except with an A64 you can apply a multiplier to it. So, 4x LDT of 200MHz would give you a HTT link speed of 800MHz.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 08:24 PM
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LDT is Lightning Data Transport, which was the codename for HyperTransport when it was in development.
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Old 24th May, 2005, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Áedán
LDT is Lightning Data Transport, which was the codename for HyperTransport when it was in development.
Yes it was.

I have now decided to give it a new meaning. I have submitted this to Oxford Uni for inclusion in the next edition of the dictionary.
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Old 25th May, 2005, 12:44 AM
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Thanks for the info, fellas

Cadaveca -- The load is being generated by SETI@Home Classic using the command line client and no graphics. The only thing on the video display is the WinXP desktop and SETIspy application -- i.e. virually zero graphical overhead.

The job of this PC will be computation for the forseeable future, and although I expect to replace the PCI card, it will be thanks to a 9600 being freed up after I finalize the gamer vid upgrade (the old domino effect ). The PS is labeled Mustang and came with the case, but seems to do a pretty reasonable job thus far. Since a cache resident computation would require a 2MB L2, my best performance with 512KB follows the memory speed. So, although I hoped to clock the Venice at 2.8GHz (or thereabouts), memory speed is actually more useful.

The gamer has an Antec SL350 with an XP-M @2.485GHz, 1GB PC2700, and 166MHz FSB. I upgraded to the Antec in hope of an o/c improvement over the original MaxPower 350W, but it made absolutely no difference. I'm getting the impression the "no-name" power supplies included with today's cases are not half as bad as people tend to presume (though I do wonder about a +12 rating of less than 15A).

Thinking of the Hyper Transport. My only BIOS settings are:

HT Frequency: [1000MHz], 800, 600, 400, 200
HT Data Width (upstream): [16bit], 8bit
HT Data Width (downstream): [16bit], 8bit

The brackets are my settings.

I'm letting it run now at 270MHz HTT (it's a 24/7 machine) and I won't fool with it further until I revise the RAM cooling -- maybe a faster fan and perhaps a funnel to direct the flow more. The cpu cooling is clearly not a problem -- don't seem to be able to push it high enough to get warm.

Now you folks let me know if some great DIMM cooling solutions occur to you -- OK?

Thanks -- Trevor
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Last edited by TrevorS; 25th May, 2005 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 25th May, 2005, 01:18 AM
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HT frequency...set that one down one or two notches, and try again...that's a pretty high HTT speed for 5x multi...that's 2700mhz LDT frequency over the 2000mhz default(that 1000mhzx2, for real speed). The default, 2000mhz, is also tied into the chipset as well as the cpu. the "sweetspot" is right around 2000-2100mhz, for most chips (cpu/chipset). Bet that's what is holding you back.
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Old 25th May, 2005, 04:04 AM
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The games continue:

First -- The Coolmax is max gone!

Second -- I've replaced my jury-rigged fixed speed fan with a freshly jury-rigged temperature controlled fan with a somewhat higher CFM at low temp and a more accurate focus on the DIMMS. This resulted in hitting 275MHz HTT (the DIMM spec), with a 9.5 cpu multi (2.612GHz) and 1.675 core (don't really like it being that high). This pushes the cpu temp to the dizzy heights of 45C -- whew! Oh yes, no change in the +12 voltage -- still fine.

Discovered something very interesting -- the 9.0 cpu multiplier just doesn't seem to want to work. Both 8.5 and 9.5 are fine, but can't make 9.0 behave itself. Weird!

Regarding HT -- I computed an HT near 2000-2100MHz would be 4x multi (800MHz by the BIOS). I rolled everything back, plugged in 4x, set the cpu multi to 10x, and started running up the HTT. Here is the result -- HTT Vs CoreV:

200MHz, 1.400V
240MHz, 1.450V
250MHz, 1.525V
260MHz, 1.625V
262MHz, 1.650V
264MHz, Doesn't work at max voltage of 1.700V!

That result is sufficiently similar to my HT 5x cpu behavior, I'd say the limit is the processor, not the HT. As I said, my Venice is fruit loops! However, the DIMMs seem to be working pretty well -- guess I'll take what I can get.

FWIW: I was also able to run stable with CPU 9.5x, 5x HT, and 274MHz HTT (didn't try 275MHz, but 276MHz didn't fly). It's not clear there's much difference in o/c result between the two HT settings.

Do you happen to know the practical significance of the HT "sweet spot"? Is it just a question of stability on the high side versus throughput on the low -- or something else? Also, does a high HT translate into risk of exessive NothBridge heat? Just wondering why I should choose the 4x over the 5x if both work.

Thanks -- Trevor
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Old 25th May, 2005, 04:15 AM
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5x would be better, although most people getting excessive clocks are running 3x. hihgh ldt speeds won't affect stablity much, until you get lots of chipset-cpu communication, as this is what this setting refers to. Of course, higher is better, but there is also a point where more speed really won't make any difference in performance, and that's where that "sweetspot" comes into play. however, running at 3x, and then slowing the amt of data flowing over the HT bus per clock cycle, obviously lessens the load on both the cpu, and the motherboard.
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Old 25th May, 2005, 04:40 AM
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Hmmm!

Well, the current HT is 2200 (4x2x275). I'll let it run a couple days like this and then switch back to 2750 and see if there's a difference in stability. Whichever seems to behave itself best will win -- if no difference, then 5x it is.

I'll tell you one thing -- as I started getting to higher core voltages, the classic restart and reset misbehaviors of o/c'd processors began to appear. The processor behaves normally up to 1.6V, but above that it starts getting squirrelly. I should probably roll it back to 170 HTT (or else go to 8.5 multi). What a pain -- I always manage to get a slow cpu, even now with the more expensive 90nm chips! Bah!

Maybe I'll one day plug a dual core into this chassis -- but those guys are going to be especially expensive.

Thanks for your help -- Trevor
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Old 25th May, 2005, 06:05 AM
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Just discovered the 9.0x does indeed work, but it's behavior with Vcore is identical to 10x (as a function of HTT). If 10x requires too much voltage to advance HTT further, then forget about 9.0x it'll require the same. 9.5x will roll back the voltage, and 8.5x will roll it back still further, but not 9.0x -- bummer, that ratio would have been useful

I found I could run the memory as high as 278MHz, but the cpu voltage at 9.5x is a problem and the 9.0x multiplier is useless. 8.5x costs too much performance, so that means sticking with 9.5x and rolling back HTT. For now I'll settle on 274MHz (a little margin doesn't hurt) and the 5x HT multi is just fine. If warmer weather causes misbehavior, then I'll just roll back the HTT as needed and trim Vcore to match.

Warm weather will be the efficacy test for the temp controlled DIMM fan. It's rotation sensor is plugged into the mainboard, so this should be interesting.

Thanks again for your help -- Trevor
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Last edited by TrevorS; 25th May, 2005 at 06:40 AM.
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