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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 4th June, 2004, 10:58 AM
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ATI admits to 'cheats'

ATI have claimed (on chips like the X800) that they're doing full trilinear filtering, and that the best nVidia could manage was only adaptive filtering. Not only that, but ATI claimed that they were "unacceptable tricks" in a presentation to hardware reviewers recently. Unfortunately for ATI, they've been rumbled, as people have discovered that ATI doesn't do full trilinear filtering, but only does adaptive filtering.

Well, not quite. ATI have a patent on a system to examine mip mapping to see if the mip maps are coloured. This allows the ATI card to switch to full trilinear filtering when it detects that the mip mapping is being examined closely. Typically reviewers use coloured mip maps when they examine how the mapping is occuring. However, run a game on the ATI chip, and the driver switches back to running adaptive filtering.

This would appear to put nVidia's 6800 and ATI's X800 even closer in performance.
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Old 4th June, 2004, 02:02 PM
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Hello Aedan,

How did you find out this amazing news? Do you have a link that you may share with us?

Chris
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Old 4th June, 2004, 02:32 PM
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I did a bit of collecting work, See ComputerBase, Xbit labs and 3D Centre

Note that they're in German and Russian (I believe!)
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Old 9th June, 2004, 05:46 PM
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ATI cheats

there is an article at Tom's Hardware Guide discussing this. If I understood everything correctly, nVidia in fact offers a way to turn of the adaptive filtering, allowing for full trilinear, while the user is not able to switch off ATI's adaptive filtering.
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Old 9th June, 2004, 07:19 PM
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The biggest issue is that ATI claimed full trilinear support, but the drivers only do adaptive, unless they think you're looking for full trilinear. That's especially bad when ATI were slating nVidia for using adaptive filtering.

If the adaptive is good, then I should see very little different between adaptive and trilinear. Personally, as long as the end result is good, I don't care. What I do care about is people claiming something that isn't true!
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Old 9th June, 2004, 07:21 PM
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The age of innocence has truly passed us by!
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Old 9th June, 2004, 08:47 PM
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it seems to me that ati has just to enable the filtering properly in a driver, and ther would be no difference between the nvid and ati..
however
when bench results lead to sales, i DO believe that ati is wrong in not informing the public as to why the x800 performs better. If they make changes in the driver so that the filtering is the same as nvidia, then why would someone buy one or the other?
i think ati deserves a little bit of kudos for being able to provide the same VISIBLE END RESULT IN GAMES as nvid, with using a different method of filtering. just look at it this way: ati does not NEED full trilinear filtering to achieve the same result, hence pushing ati's gpu less than an nvid gpu doing the same work. Kinda explains how they have been able to keep the heat lower now doesn't it?
it's like 2 guys arguing over who has the biggest penis..not thinking about how satisfied thier wives are.
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Old 9th June, 2004, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
i think ati deserves a little bit of kudos for being able to provide the same VISIBLE END RESULT IN GAMES as nvid, with using a different method of filtering. just look at it this way: ati does not NEED full trilinear filtering to achieve the same result, hence pushing ati's gpu less than an nvid gpu doing the same work. Kinda explains how they have been able to keep the heat lower now doesn't it?
nVidia don't NEED full trilinear filtering to achieve the same result either. nVidia's default is the same as ATI's - Adaptive filtering.That didn't stop ATI from claiming that nVidia's use of adaptive filtering was bad. Slagging adaptive filtering off, and claiming that your product does full trilinear filtering when under normal circumstances it doesn't does not deserve any kudos if you ask me.

I suspect that a lack of PS3 and higher resolution floating point may also influence the heat output too - adding those in would push the heat up!
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:00 PM
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kind of.. but what i got out of the deal was that ati's card would do full trilinear when it was needed...nothing about nvid's doing it without changing settings,and this is what ati is making their claim on...
we can nitpik all we want...all that matters to me is real-world performance and price...and even though i still have alot of respect for ati...my next card will probably be nvidia(only because i can't find a decent blue ati pcb)
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
kind of.. but what i got out of the deal was that ati's card would do full trilinear when it was needed...
ATI's card will do full trilinear, but only when it detects that the MIP mapping is being examined to see if it is full trilinear or not. The driver looks for coloured MIP maps (The standard test for examining filtering and MIP mapping), and if it finds them, disables adaptive filtering, and enables full trilinear.

If the driver doesn't find coloured MIP maps, it uses adaptive. Hence, ATI's card only appears to do full trilinear when someone's checking to see that trilinear is really happening. That's downright sneaky if you ask me.
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:23 PM
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sneaky...yes....and no...why use a card more than is needed? when the end visible result is the same, wether it is full tri or "bri" won't matter to most consumers. remember too, that these cards are new for both sides of the court, and they are definately going to change when newer revisions come out. Heck, ati had to delay the release date by 2 days, to ensure that they had enough stock of the gpu's.....
i personally, am not amazed by the x800. give me a 9800 pro with 256-bit mem and i would be more than happy.
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
sneaky...yes....and no...why use a card more than is needed? when the end visible result is the same, wether it is full tri or "bri" won't matter to most consumers.
I have no problem with the end visible result. I have problems with ATI's claim. They claimed that nVidia are using adaptive filtering, and that adaptive filtering is bad. They also claimed that their card doesn't use adaptive filtering, but uses full trilinear filtering, which is good. That's the pot calling the kettle black, as ATI are fully aware that their card DOES use adaptive filtering.

Why go to all the trouble of trying to cover up that the card is using adaptive filtering, and slag the competition off?
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:38 PM
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uh...marketing?

yes they used the wrong words....should have said that theirs will do trilinear when needed, and it HAS to be enabled(adaptive turned off) in nvid. had this been stated i think things would be ok, but you can't smash a company for something that some employee wrote for them...
ya'all are makin ati seem as bad as good ol Bill G!
their statement is true....you have have have to turn the adaptive off on nvid cards...not on ati..so ati does it by default when needed, nvid's just uses adaptive. of course i could have read that wrong, but that point seemed to be touched on almost 5 or more pages.
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:39 PM
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Well I think we all agree that the real problem is in not disclosing fully what is really happening to get the frame rates and performance. Both the 6800 and the X800 are stellar performers, and truthfully there is very few fps difference between them over all. What I am wondering at this point - and this may be a deciding factor in my next video card purchase - is whether or not ATI has fixed the multi-monitor support issue that they had in the 9800 and previous cards. With the nVidia cards, I can run two monitors off my AGP card, and then run one or even two monitors off a PCI card. From what I have read, and based on playing around with my friend's 9600 XT, ATI doesn't support adding a second video card at all. Why do I need/want 4 monitors you ask? SO I can game, run downloads, and keep AOA forums up all at the same time! Seriously though, anyone know what the score is with the X800 and additional cards?
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Old 9th June, 2004, 11:43 PM
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it's more the mobo that won't support 2 cards(i think)... i have a voodoo 5 triplex that will not work in any recent board...i have a 9600np that does dually displays no prob, and even to the point that with my asus via board, i can use the 2 on the 9600 and the onboard...
dually x800 pci express..each card doing half the screen...that's what keeps me an ati slave...do you see nvid offering the like?
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Old 10th June, 2004, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadaveca
you have have have to turn the adaptive off on nvid cards...not on ati..so ati does it by default when needed, nvid's just uses adaptive. of course i could have read that wrong, but that point seemed to be touched on almost 5 or more pages.
The problem is that the "When needed" with ATI means when people are explicitly examining for full trilinear support, not at any other point. Coloured MIP maps only occur when people are examining the filtering support. Coloured MIP maps do not occur in games, so the card will never use full trilinear in a game.

It's exactly the same idea as nVidia 'optimizing' for 3Dmark03 by checking for the executable name. It's just slightly more sneaky as it detects the filtering tests (rather than looking for the exe name) and enables trilinear just for those tests. As soon as those filtering tests are done, it disables trilinear again.

End result is a card that will never use trilinear, even if you want it to.
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Old 10th June, 2004, 10:34 AM
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that i agree to...totally...just have to awit for the omega driver that enables it. No big deal to me.
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Old 10th June, 2004, 09:30 PM
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In my view there's a 50/50 Chance we won't see it. Why?. It seems heat is a real problem when it's enabled. Also "if people are buying, why worry?"

But hope springs eternal in the mind of man! ":O}
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