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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 5th November, 2010, 08:34 PM
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I totally understand. Demanding will get us nowhere with Linux and Nvidia/AMD... so we have to wait.
I will leave Microsoft behind the day Linux can compete with games on the same level. I know there is Cadega and it has a HUGE list of game compatibility for Linux, but I can't afford a monthly payment.

I am inspired by your bold move from Microsoft. I couldn't do it because I play way too many games.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 5th November, 2010, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
(yes a driver is a specific type of software CREATED by hardware makers, Not the open source community, that communicates between the OS and hardware Having created it they OWN it and can do with it as they like, they owe the open source community zip!)
A driver can be created by anyone who has the necessary expertise. To the extent that the hardware vendor owns the hardware in question, they have the knowledge of how to talk to the hardware. HOWEVER, that hardware is USELESS without a system in which to run it, and every operating system has its own requirements with respect to the expertise necessary to build the driver.

From the hardware vendor's standpoint, the driver is nothing but cost. It costs them money to have an engineer (who is usually at best, only marginally competent, given many of the drivers I've seen in the Windows world) to write driver. It costs them money to have someone on staff to take calls to troubleshoot stupid user errors. In short, for the vendor that driver is nothing but a cost, one they could just as easily do without.

There is some argument to be made for the vendor having control of the driver software so that they can control the quality of said software. However, again, given what I've seen in the Windows world, that argument doesn't seem to hold a lot of water.

So we come back to this simple question: why SHOULDN'T a vendor take advantage of the opportunity to have someone else write the driver for them, FOR FREE? It costs them nothing beyond the cost of documentation and some time to work with the driver writer (both of which they would have to do ANYWAY).

BTW, please show me where I or anyone else in the open source community have said the hardware vendors OWE the open source community ANYTHING?

What I HAVE said, and am continuing to point out, is that it would seem to me to be in their own best interests (not to mention YOURS) for them to work with the open source community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Nvidia have every right to say no. Just I Said no to MS. Saying no to MS doesn't mean I said yes to everything "the Linux Community" might like me to.
They absolutely have that right, and so do you. However, your attitude is precisely the reason MS became such a powerful force in the market. The attitude of the open source community is precisely the reason that you have Linux to use as an alternative today. Were it not for that attitude, Linux would not exist at all, flawed though it may be. Prior to the development of Linux, you simply did not have a choice: it was Microsoft (or to a lesser extent Apple) or nothing. For many people it still is, but that situation IS improving.

If by now, especially with your background, you can't understand what I am driving at then I am truly sorry. I have failed you, because I simply don't know how to explain it in terms that you can grasp.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 5th November, 2010, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccperf721p View Post
The term software freedom is thrown around and used out of context way too often in the linux community. Software freedom only means you are free to change things because the source is available.
That is fundamentally the only freedom you need with respect to software. The rest is up to you, but without THAT freedom, you have NOTHING.

So you have to hire a programmer. Does that programmer not work for YOU then? Does that not mean that if they don't do the work you want, you then can fire them and hire someone else?

Say you need a change made to a proprietary application? What is your recourse then?
"Dear mister software vendor, I need this feature". 6 months later, after numerous meetings internally to discuss whether it's a feature they think they want to implement, MAYBE they implement SOMETHING that looks VAGUELY like what you asked for, and you get to pay an upgrade fee for the privilege of using the feature that you gave them the idea for to start with. That's if you're lucky. They may simply refuse to implement the feature at all, or they may come back and say "We can do that, but it will cost you $XXXX to do because you're the only customer that wants it."

I'm not making these scenarios up: I have seen them happen over and over in the world of proprietary software.

Yes, with open source you get the source code, but if you don't have the expertise then you have to hire a programmer. At least then you stand a chance of getting what YOU paid for. With a proprietary vendor, you don't even have that much, except possibly in rare instances.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 5th November, 2010, 09:21 PM
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I'll ask the question:
Why won't Nvidia/AMD give up code for the open source community to build their own drivers?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 6th November, 2010, 02:11 AM
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Ultimately because the drivers contain a substantial amount of IP that could benefit their competitors. Think about every time they make a tweak that gives better performance, or every time they cheat in a benchmark. That's all in their driver source, and they don't want anyone else

a: Copying their good ideas
b: Finding out that they've been fluffing benchmarks by creating image quality reducing edge conditions to increase performance
c: Finding out how bad their mess is.

Number C is always going to be the case, as I can guarantee you, most of the core code on both sides is going to be managed by some bloke with a beard that breaks **** frequently, but by luck happens to be quite good at making it perform when it comes down to it. Nobody wants us to know that grub exists though, or how badly his gnashed that code together.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 6th November, 2010, 04:25 AM
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thats what I thought you were going to say...
Well, at least its there for the newbies.
It always comes down to the money
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 6th November, 2010, 09:31 PM
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What I always find interesting about Linux and drivers is that people complain the moment a piece of hardware isn't 100% perfect right out of the box. I suppose this should be a testament to how well the various distros have done in getting Linux installation down from "13th task of Hercules" to "just works... mostly".

Typically the same people forget that, having just installed Windows, they then spend the afternoon downloading graphics, sound and networking drivers that work better than the Windows-supplied versions. Microsoft is no more able to supply the latest Catalyst or GeForce drivers than is Fedora. Instead they supply a driver that will work on the vast majority of hardware, well enough to draw a screen and get basic 3D acceleration going. The rest of it is down to you, the end user. (Microsoft, however, are able to distribute parts of the vendor driver having made commercial agreements with nvidia et al. Fedora have no such arrangements.)

Microsoft and Fedora are hamstrung by the same thing: licensing. If nVidia state that their driver cannot be freely distributed (which it does) then it cannot be bundled on the installation media. With Linux it gets even more messy as you sift through the dozens of free software licences with all their conflicts and incompatibilities. Fedora, as a publicly-traded company and Linux big-fish cannot be seen to break any licensing restrictions, otherwise lawsuits will surely follow. Mint is, by comparison, a minnow so not worth pursuing for its regular breaches of licence.

So yes you can have a free-as-in-beer driver from the manufacturer for your graphics card, forever; however you'll have to install it yourself, just as you would with Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booman
Why won't Nvidia/AMD give up code for the open source community to build their own drivers?
Funnily enough, that's exactly what AMD have been doing for the last 3 years. It's one reason why the open source radeon driver is getting so good these days. It's not as simple as simply uploading their complete source to github.

Both AMD and nVidia make use of other companies' intellectual property: there are all sorts of technologies, tweaks etc that AMD have licensed to get their Catalyst drivers to where they are. AMD are delivering information about their chip architectures and how their driver works slowly, after it's stripped of all commercially-sensitive IP. A couple of AMD staff-guys are the main developers of the open source radeon project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo
So we come back to this simple question: why SHOULDN'T a vendor take advantage of the opportunity to have someone else write the driver for them, FOR FREE? It costs them nothing beyond the cost of documentation and some time to work with the driver writer (both of which they would have to do ANYWAY).
Companies are getting there. AMD are doing it. Broadcom have started doing it (I'm looking forward to being able to try the new driver in the 2.6.37 kernel and ditch their sta driver for my wifi). Intel have been doing it for years. Companies are starting to see the merits of it and some brilliant innovations and drivers have resulted from it.

There is some progress still to be made on working methods and attitudes between the open source developer community and the commercial one, though.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 6th November, 2010, 10:55 PM
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I hope I am still around when all vendors create Linux-native drivers for all hardware. That will be the day when I ditch windows for good
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 7th November, 2010, 03:23 AM
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Should add that Intel have been doing an admirable job, the intel drivers are always ready for use in the kernel, BEFORE the hardware comes out for them, and in fact on at least one occasion, the news that a new chip was coming out was discovered first because the intel dev's had just added new code to support it.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 7th November, 2010, 03:31 AM
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I totally agree! I realized one day that I had an Intel Gigabit Ethernet card and popped it in my Fedora 8 machine and didn't have to install anything. worked right out of the box
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 7th November, 2010, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
That is fundamentally the only freedom you need with respect to software. The rest is up to you, but without THAT freedom, you have NOTHING.

So you have to hire a programmer. Does that programmer not work for YOU then? Does that not mean that if they don't do the work you want, you then can fire them and hire someone else?

Say you need a change made to a proprietary application? What is your recourse then?
"Dear mister software vendor, I need this feature". 6 months later, after numerous meetings internally to discuss whether it's a feature they think they want to implement, MAYBE they implement SOMETHING that looks VAGUELY like what you asked for, and you get to pay an upgrade fee for the privilege of using the feature that you gave them the idea for to start with. That's if you're lucky. They may simply refuse to implement the feature at all, or they may come back and say "We can do that, but it will cost you $XXXX to do because you're the only customer that wants it."

I'm not making these scenarios up: I have seen them happen over and over in the world of proprietary software.

Yes, with open source you get the source code, but if you don't have the expertise then you have to hire a programmer. At least then you stand a chance of getting what YOU paid for. With a proprietary vendor, you don't even have that much, except possibly in rare instances.
I understand and agree to a point, however this is not and will most likely never be my situation. For what I needed there are many pieces of software that would do the job, the open source versions just could not do the job well.

Linux has a fairly simple philosophy, do one job, do it well. Why is this not adhered to?
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 8th November, 2010, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
If by now, especially with your background, you can't understand what I am driving at then I am truly sorry. I have failed you, because I simply don't know how to explain it in terms that you can grasp.
I'll make this easy for you...

When Linux has a driver that works...I'll be happy to use. Until then you have failed utterly to show how I harm Linux by using what is at hand and, Why, despite my ignorance and crimes against humanity, Linux (other destros) is amply prepared to receive me. Will in fact tell me my third party drivers aren't installed and ask if I wish them (Linux) to install them for me so that my desktop features will work properly (Linux) features.

I get that you think you are in a morally Superior position here... but can't see why you think you are...":O}

After all of the two of us only one of us even has a copy of windows...and it ain't me brother...LOL
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 8th November, 2010, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
After all of the two of us only one of us even has a copy of windows...and it ain't me brother...LOL
That's a low blow Daniel. The only copy of Windows I have is:

a. Provided by my employer
b. Required by the work that I do for said employer

None of my PERSONAL machines have Windows. Even my wife I have finally managed to ween from Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~
I get that you think you are in a morally Superior position here... but can't see why you think you are...":O}
Well then, welcome to my world. Now you know how I frequently feel in my conversations with you.....

Last edited by Gizmo; 8th November, 2010 at 07:50 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 8th November, 2010, 08:03 PM
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Indeed it was! It was a low blow!

And

you had one coming! LOL
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 8th November, 2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Well then, welcome to my world. Now you know how I frequently feel in my conversations with you.....
You must be patient with our conversations, the deepest seeds often do not sprout for decades after planting and the soil must be prepared...LOL
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 8th November, 2010, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
You must be patient with our conversations, the deepest seeds often do not sprout for decades after planting and the soil must be prepared...LOL
Yes, but we both know that I'm right.....we're just waiting for you to acknowledge it.....

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Old 8th November, 2010, 08:29 PM
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And when I dump on ya dude...I just trying to prepare the soil!

(God he walked right into that one! LOL)
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Old 8th November, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
But I look forward to gaming on PC again.
W7 is the way to go when it comes to PC Gaming ! Other than that all I can say is
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Old 9th November, 2010, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbard View Post
W7 is the way to go when it comes to PC Gaming ! Other than that all I can say is
If only this were true! LOL
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Old 9th November, 2010, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbard View Post
W7 is the way to go when it comes to PC Gaming ! Other than that all I can say is
This is probably the one thing they can both disagree on.
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