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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 26th September, 2012, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
" Children do not need to be taught to misbehave, instead they need to be taught to behave
One must wonder, would they need to be taught to behave ...if we behaved?

Quote:
Only grace has the power to clean. For under grace, we see that that which is unclean is cleaned by that which is cleaned! Quite the opposite effect, I think you'll agree. Grace (and only grace) is that which can declare us innocent - we are back to the court metaphor again!
Almost together now...":O}

Innocence is both agent and the natural prerequisite for grace. Innocence is the end achieved by the devoted...it is what grace bestows upon the innocent.

Grace bestows the power to be one self. Innocence is the power to be one's self.
So one strives for innocence for innocence believes in Grace And Grace follows the innocent, even into destruction...they go not alone for they are themselves and they are as they were meant to be...

Purity is to will one thing. Innocence abides in Purity and has no plan for tomorrow...":O}

Here's todays quote:

"When the Lord gets ready, you gotta move."

Kinda says it all for me! ":O}
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Old 26th September, 2012, 05:17 AM
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My head hurts

I think I have to create a new forum for 'deep thoughts'
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 26th September, 2012, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
So one strives for innocence for innocence believes in Grace And Grace follows the innocent, even into destruction...
I think this is where we diverge. As soon as you are striving, all bets are off, as you're trying to do it yourself, and therefore it cannot be done for you.
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Old 26th September, 2012, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ThunderRd View Post
I think I have to create a new forum for 'deep thoughts'
For me, a little of this comes out of life experiences, and a lot of it comes out of epiphany. Each of us is on our own journey, and one person's deep thoughts are another person's confusion. I've been learning that you can't really lead other people in these things, they have to wrestle with them themselves. Sure, you can provide a little bit of guidance, but it's for each to determine (if they wish). Many people don't wish to find out, perhaps because they're not in the right place, or perhaps because they are concerned that it means they'd have to rethink who they are. I'm sure there are a million reasons why!
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Old 26th September, 2012, 03:42 PM
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I wasn't having a go at you I was joking about being slightly off-topic

My years living amongst Buddhists has changed me far more then I think I will ever know. It has led me out of my native world into another. I have realized that nothing is absolute dogma. Nothing is unchangeable. And you're right - no one can lead another. It is a path of personal discovery.

And you're right about another thing - rethinking who we are is a never-ending process.
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Old 26th September, 2012, 04:27 PM
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I'm not sure we're really offtopic, are we? I mean, there's an element of importance in this, right?

I just wanted to ensure that no-one felt like it was too much, or that they were not qualified to add anything.
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Old 26th September, 2012, 07:34 PM
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I think this is where we diverge. As soon as you are striving, all bets are off, as you're trying to do it yourself, and therefore it cannot be done for you.
Innocence does not do. Innocence is. What innocence is, is the perquisite of grace and it's agent. And it's destined end.

They are the two sides of the same coin. Innocence is what we must be in order to receive grace. All are given grace, but only the innocent receive it. And only to the extent that they are innocent. Innocence is the clean that may wash us....To purify before the sacrifice. What we give up is our fantasy, what we gain is the selves we were created to be.

"Be ye as these little children for of such is the kingdom of heaven made."

Interesting that it was not said that they will get into heaven, but that heaven was created out of these innocents. Food for thought yes?
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Old 27th September, 2012, 10:53 AM
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From where I am sat, I feel that we may have some confusion with the meanings of innocence.

Assuming that our innocence is the "purest" (of this fact I am not convinced). If we strive for innocence, what purpose would grace have for us? We cannot strive and accept grace! If we choose to accept grace, then we reject striving, for we have accepted the fact that we could never achieve in our own strength what graces offers. If we choose to accept striving, then we reject grace, because we claim that we can do it ourselves. So, we either strive, or we accept grace.

If we are already innocent, then grace can have no meaning, for we have already achieved what grace has to offer, but by our own efforts.

If we must be pure before the sacrifice, then the sacrifice is wasted! For the sacrifice is how we are made pure. If you look at the old system (which is but a shadow of what has come), then when you came to offer your sacrifice, the priest would not be looking at your unrighteousness, but at the purity of the animal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~
"Be ye as these little children for of such is the kingdom of heaven made."
I'm not entirely sure which quote you've chosen there. I think you're thinking of one of these two (both from KJV), but I'm not sure:
  • "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
  • "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
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Old 27th September, 2012, 08:37 PM
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This is a point of difficulty. We are dealing with two separate world views that have many points of agreement. In my studies I've yet to come across a disagreement in text that was more a variance in conception.

But these conceptual difference, Are how we perceive this world and the next; We do so as finite beings through the intellect, we reason to and from our outcomes and understandings. We create Metaphysical structures, Models as it were of our world and test, constantly test those structures as to there fitness to represent the truth of our spirits and of our world...

If I'm not mistaken your world view is very much determined by your faith in the New Testament. For you it is the litmus test for all you know and do.

For me the New Testament is a new celebration and embrace of that which is as old as we are...the search for redemption. A way to say I'm sorry.

A way to say I know this is not my path and I'm sorry, I want to go home now.

So the spirit moves us. it moves us to do what we do, we asserted our reason and created our various understandings. Most were like ourselves dust in the wind.

Those that endured time, refined their texts, brought them as close to spirit as men may and found , in each of them, a gap. A gap between what we are and what we want to believe we may yet become.

And so in the very early hours of man's life he began to sing in his spirit a new song. One might say this song came to us as grace, one might say it was born of what was left of our dying innocence. A song to remember when we were in our mothers arms... In our fathers house...as Bob Marley would say "A Redemtion song is all I ever have."

What goes beyond this is truly of the spirit and I can say no more, I can say it differently, but that would not be more.":O}

Aedan you are a Christian and I am not. I'd rather you were a Christian than not. I have much in common with Christians, a Maybe even a God!

I would not change you. Maybe just remind you how long a song may be sung before it finds it's proper tune...":O}
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."
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 28th September, 2012, 12:05 PM
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I am still learning and discovering. My understanding of what and how has changed so much in the last six years - there's been a discovery that what I thought was true was in fact nothing more than a lie. From my perspective, so much of what is taught in churches is actually a twisting of the law of Moses. That isn't good news at all! In fact, at best, it's mediocre news. I don't view the split in scripture as old testament and new testament, as for me that is a bad place to be looking. Instead, the split is where the cross is. Everything before the cross pointed either to our failure, or to what was to come. Everything after points to grace. Hence my comment about dividing the covenants - many people divide in the wrong place, and hence are somewhat confused.
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Old 28th September, 2012, 07:27 PM
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Oh my, where to start?

Ok, first some ground-rules: I'm nominally Catholic, though I do take issue with some of the teachings of the Church (and I suspect any honestly searching person will find themselves in a similar situation). I don't view the teachings of the Church as the End, but the Beginning; I recognize that religion is itself an imperfect tool, created by imperfect people, to help us on our journey to achieving a Perfection.

Aedan and Daniel, I've read the thread, so here's my own minor contribution:

We do not strive to achieve perfection, for that is not attainable. That struggle can lead only to bitterness and disappointment. Rather, we strive to achieve the acceptance of Grace.

How can one 'strive' to 'accept'? It would seem the two concepts are at odds with each other. In fact, what we are stuck on is a limitation of our language (or more accurately, with my inability to express the concept properly).

The world offers us many, varied, and attractive distractions; things which take us away from our true path. Our struggle, then is to REJECT these distractions and remain true to our purpose; to act always with Love.

This is by no means an easy thing, for Love inherently sacrifices, but also inherently accepts. To sacrifice one's own desires, to allow the needs of others to supplant one's own needs, is HARD. It is in our animal nature to take, to survive. Love requires that we set that aside and trust that in our sacrifice for others we will gain our survival, accepting what we need from others (not Taking, never Taking), as we also give to others what they in turn need from us.

So, we strive to Love. In that struggle, we become willing to accept Grace.

Good Works are not enough, for Good Works can be motivated by selfish desires; the desire for recognition of the Good Works. If we learn to Love properly, Good Works will necessarily follow, and will be part of the evidence of our Love.

Not to get corny, but there was a scene from 'Babylon 5' that kinda hit the nail on the head for me. Delen has been put to the test by 'Jack the Ripper' (a Vorlon agent). She has been tortured within an inch of her life, and finally the question is asked:

'Will you die, alone, with no one to recognize your sacrifice?' (I'm paraphrasing, because I don't remember the actual text off the top of my head, and can't readily find the reference in a Google search)

That, to me, is the essence of the question of my existence: Am I willing to do what must to be done, in the dark places, where no one will ever know?

The answer to that question scares the hell out of me. I love my family more than anything in this world and yet still, I fear I fail that test. If I fail it for them, how much more will I fail it for the one I don't know?
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Old 28th September, 2012, 07:36 PM
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Historicaly that cross has been placed upon many men.

Ever notice how episodic the new testament is? Each "Story" a lesson. Each story fixes in time a particular and often recurring situation. An Arch-type pulled out of human time, then made into law.

We call them Bible stories over here. But they are the legal texts of Christianity.

Like ALL law it was based upon former law. Yet it revives in the new Testament a refinement I've not found elsewhere.

JC always cuts to the chase. Always goes straight for the juggler.

"And when he knew for certain only drowning men could see him
he said then all men shall be sailers until the sea shall free them

but he sank benight your wisdom like a stone"

Suzan by Leonard Cohen

OF These recurring situations perhaps none would serve you and I better at this time than this one:

"But I say unto you that you should love your brother as yourself."

This is a light that shall shine forever! This dispels darkness in the darkest hour.

It sets the bar for human love.

Who should we love, how shall we love them?

We should begin, where?

We should first love ourselves. How shall we loves our selves? Do we we love all that's good and wonderful in us? No.

How can that be right? That leave the part of us most in need of our love...abandon, without a way to go!!

Did "HE" not come for the sinner? Did he despise us because we needed him? No.

So this self we are COMMANDED to love. It is of a piece. Some good, some bad.

JC didn't say love only the highest in you, nor did he say to love only the best in our brothers.

That we must love our brothers as ourselves defines the love we must bear within us. A love without discrimination. A love that sees your needs as my own, you progress as my own. Your failings as my own.

We must love the sinner within us as we love the God that created him/her.

We are here to work. This is the work that we must accomplish if we wish to please the Devine. We must love ourselves and then love our brthers as ourselves.

Please, please forgive my presumption;
I want you to love you more Aedan. I want you to see that you were SUPPOSED to be imperfect. You were supposed to have work to do upon your imperfect self.

This doesn't make us anything but what we are, creatures struggling to fulfill our forums, creatures trying to become what we are and to know ourselves for the first time...When we meet our brother

When we meet our brothers we mustn't turn away if someone has placed him upon a cross...And we mustn't blame ourselves if we find we've been elected to bear that wood.

JC knew we were wrenched when he offered himself in our stead.. He didn't die for what is already alright with us, He went down to redeem what is worse in us...The Courage of that conviction!!

In the end JC put his money where his mouth was. When a man lays down his life for a thing, what ever else we may say, We KNOW he believed.

Lastly, if I haven't gone to far already...

"Oh Ye who know the letter of the law but know not it's spirit"

The truths of Christendom are wide spread.They predate JC by thousands of years and appear over and over again as cultures rise and fall. No doubt that JC was the last great expression of the Christos, the Messiah The savior of men.

But the spirit he embodied has been with us always. The spirit of the law moves though all. The letter of the law is there to help us when our spirit deserts us and we live in darkness.

Yet just before the dawn The spirit of the law always returns and illuminate the texts anew. It is that illumination that is the dawn of man.
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 28th September, 2012, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
Oh my, where to start?

Ok, first some ground-rules: I'm nominally Catholic, though I do take issue with some of the teachings of the Church (and I suspect any honestly searching person will find themselves in a similar situation). I don't view the teachings of the Church as the End, but the Beginning; I recognize that religion is itself an imperfect tool, created by imperfect people, to help us on our journey to achieving a Perfection.

Aedan and Daniel, I've read the thread, so here's my own minor contribution:

We do not strive to achieve perfection, for that is not attainable. That struggle can lead only to bitterness and disappointment. Rather, we strive to achieve the acceptance of Grace.

How can one 'strive' to 'accept'? It would seem the two concepts are at odds with each other. In fact, what we are stuck on is a limitation of our language (or more accurately, with my inability to express the concept properly).

The world offers us many, varied, and attractive distractions; things which take us away from our true path. Our struggle, then is to REJECT these distractions and remain true to our purpose; to act always with Love.

This is by no means an easy thing, for Love inherently sacrifices, but also inherently accepts. To sacrifice one's own desires, to allow the needs of others to supplant one's own needs, is HARD. It is in our animal nature to take, to survive. Love requires that we set that aside and trust that in our sacrifice for others we will gain our survival, accepting what we need from others (not Taking, never Taking), as we also give to others what they in turn need from us.

So, we strive to Love. In that struggle, we become willing to accept Grace.

Good Works are not enough, for Good Works can be motivated by selfish desires; the desire for recognition of the Good Works. If we learn to Love properly, Good Works will necessarily follow, and will be part of the evidence of our Love.

Not to get corny, but there was a scene from 'Babylon 5' that kinda hit the nail on the head for me. Delen has been put to the test by 'Jack the Ripper' (a Vorlon agent). She has been tortured within an inch of her life, and finally the question is asked:

'Will you die, alone, with no one to recognize your sacrifice?' (I'm paraphrasing, because I don't remember the actual text off the top of my head, and can't readily find the reference in a Google search)

That, to me, is the essence of the question of my existence: Am I willing to do what must to be done, in the dark places, where no one will ever know?

The answer to that question scares the hell out of me. I love my family more than anything in this world and yet still, I fear I fail that test. If I fail it for them, how much more will I fail it for the one I don't know?
While I find myself in agreement with all you are saying, let me throw a wrench at you! ":O}

"But I say unto you be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect"

DAMN! Talk about setting a high bar!!

But what is he talking about? Christian humility would seem at odds with such a commandment! Be perfect..yeah right.

But wait, maybe there is a realm where in we can strive for and indeed achieve PER-FECT-TION. Not just the clever amongst us, not just the determined of will.

A realm where in we all might be seen as perfect in our endeavor.


We can love perfectly. We an receive love perfectly.

This is not a quality we possess. This is the quality of Love. Love is in and of itself, perfect. When we love we share, even as God shares in that love.

"Be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect."
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 28th September, 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 28th September, 2012, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
This is not a quality we possess. This is the quality of Love. Love is in and of itself, perfect. When we love we share, even as God shares in that love.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. You just did it so much better! LOL
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Old 28th September, 2012, 08:10 PM
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Naw, you did fine, I just can't leave this kind of discussion alone...":O}

In these discussions I always feel it's more important to strive, to try and understand even if it reveals certain vulnerabilitys or uncertainty's.

I've posted many things in this vain I no loner consider my best expression of a subject. doesn't matter, I was striving, trying to see beyond myself to what is REAL.

You saw what in my view is REAL. The rest is just by the way...":O}
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 28th September, 2012 at 08:18 PM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 29th September, 2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
"But I say unto you be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect"
Yes, that is exactly what the law demands, perfection. If you so much as fail to keep one of the commandments, then you are guilty of breaking them all. If you break the commandments, then you are cursed.

If you want to look at scripture, then rewind a bit in that chapter "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:20) gives you all you need to know. These people mentioned were well known for their zealous law keeping - but it's not enough (and by law, I mean the law of Moses, just the ten commandments). If you want to strive yourself, then read on a bit, and you'll see the master of the law showing just where the bar is set. It is set impossibly high for humans.

But then, there is a curious little bit that I'd often glanced over, three little words at the end of a sentence (in the KJV) - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (v17) What does "but to fulfil" mean?

Apologies to those of us who aren't from 1662. The English language has changed a great deal in the last 400 years, and I'd normally use a different translation. I'm also aware that there are a lot of people who like KJV, because that's what they are used to.
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Old 29th September, 2012, 02:21 PM
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And soon you will learn its all bull**** and myths are just myths.
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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Old 29th September, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Aedan View Post
Yes, that is exactly what the law demands, perfection. If you so much as fail to keep one of the commandments, then you are guilty of breaking them all. If you break the commandments, then you are cursed.

If you want to look at scripture, then rewind a bit in that chapter "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:20) gives you all you need to know. These people mentioned were well known for their zealous law keeping - but it's not enough (and by law, I mean the law of Moses, just the ten commandments). If you want to strive yourself, then read on a bit, and you'll see the master of the law showing just where the bar is set. It is set impossibly high for humans.

But then, there is a curious little bit that I'd often glanced over, three little words at the end of a sentence (in the KJV) - "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (v17) What does "but to fulfil" mean?

Apologies to those of us who aren't from 1662. The English language has changed a great deal in the last 400 years, and I'd normally use a different translation. I'm also aware that there are a lot of people who like KJV, because that's what they are used to.
Was he? Was he the Mater of the law? You stated his view of those who "Know the letter but not the spirit... So why would he claim such a title?

JC has two faces. One he shows to the vile and the depraved, Lawyers and accounts... the book keepers, those who are good at finding what's wrong with what's otherwise alright. Good at condemnation and the foreseeing of doom in any good thing.

So why would he join them in worshiping the Law? He doesn't. Their only point of contact is the whip! A whip the cuts the law to pieces and tramples it into the dust of the city. For they who he tore the flesh from with a whip were the keepers of the Law, and the money changers were their companions even as it is this day.

For the fulfillment of the law is it destruction.

Impossible! How can men live without law!!?
Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such as they is the kingdom of heaven made.

(In all cases one really should accept Aedan's Quotes rather than my own for exact text. I'm a meaning freak, once I have the meaning, the letter of the law is just by the way for me. I am not a scholar, just a searcher...":O}

Why cling to the law when the spirit of the law is with us this very day?

"Love, then do what you will"

Just has to be one of the most profound things ever said about the "Law" of JC.

It's it just like him to trust us so, even after the cross?

Love and what the lawyers can do to you is without significance. Love and you pass so far beyond the law as to inhabit the realm of spiritual beings.

Love and walk among the profits of God.

He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it... it;s fulfillment looks like this.

"He does nothing to make himself feared, Love governs intercourse within the family"
(From Hexagram 37, The family I-Ching)

Laws are for judgment. Rules are for guidance. Within the family they are one. Judgment is done away with and guidance is left in it's place, this IS the transformation of Love.

Things are different when we turn to the otter world, where love fades and Judgment reasserts itself. Different perhaps for you and I, but not I think for JC.

JC has a bit larger family than most. and Most are in fact sinners under the law.

But JC has two faces and JC does not judge those who act from love, he consecrates them!

The whip is not for these little children not ever. Nor is the law, except to guide, not to judge, for they are already perfect even as their father in heaven is perfect.

I think that some how people have this idea that to be perfect is to be without flaw, to never make a mistake.Or worse that our mistakes need to be judged punished, this is only. rarely so and mostly in criminal cases and criminals are not a part of this discussion; They are the creatures of the Scribes and Pharisees.

Perfection is what in a world of change? To be her or to be there? No.

Perfection is simply to will the good with all you imperfect heart.To forgive yourself and others with all your imperfect heart. My God does not judge us, he roots for us everyday and his judgment never falls upon us.

He waits for me to grow into his creation of me and dose so without complaint and never rushes me.

He sets leafs to spin at my feet and ideas to form in my mind with the same hand.

JC IS THE GOD OF LOVE. Miss this and one misses all. The fulfillment of the law is Radiant love that permeates the heavens and allows all beings to flow into their forms...The Law is just the code, the program, as lifeless as the rocks that float in space, a format.

But the fulfillment of the law is love, is life that lives forever and animates the rocks and closes the spaces between crushing them to dust and then pulling a universe, pulling me into being.

The law fulfilled is dust at his feet and we can walk on by the law if we walk with the spirit of the law as our guide.

Hope there's a bit of truth somewhere in all of that, it was after all written with love.":O}

When discussing these things we would do well to remember that even those closest to him, failed for many years in their understanding...We are supposed to struggle, we need to strive if we are to understand or as lest grasp if never really comprehending the DIVINE.
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 29th September, 2012 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 29th September, 2012, 10:14 PM
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And soon you will learn its all bull**** and myths are just myths.
"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
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When you don't understand a thing, you grow easily bored with it. Try asking a question. Questions are the harbingers of understanding they fly before it and rattle complacency shaking it to alertness, when we are awake we are less likely to play the fool.
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
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Richard Wilbur

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Last edited by Daniel ~; 29th September, 2012 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 30th September, 2012, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Was he? Was he the Mater of the law?
I'm guessing you meant "master" rather than "mater" (mother) as it was in response to my text. Yes, he is the Master of the law. After all, who else knows the law inside and out like He does? (See below)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
You stated his view of those who "Know the letter but not the spirit... So why would he claim such a title?
Why? Because the law was given to show mankind that they could never hope to be self-righteous. If you look back to where the law was originally given, and then go back a chapter, you'll find that there is a nation that says (in my paraphrase!) "Bring it on God, we can do whatever you ask us to". In the KJV, it's rendered "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do". That's man boasting he can do it in his own strength.

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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
So why would he join them in worshiping the Law? He doesn't.
He is not worshipping the law. He gave the law so that man could see that all their self efforts would never be able to match up to the perfection demanded in the law. The law is designed to bring men to the end of themselves, to see that they are unable to do it themselves. The design of it is to show man that he needs a saviour. It was never intended to be fulfilled. Those who attempt to fulfill it only seal their own destruction by their own judgement.

Quote:
For the fulfillment of the law is it destruction.
If that is the case, why is the last part of the verse "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"? Fulfillment of the law is not its destruction.
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