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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 30th September, 2012, 09:41 AM
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I understand some things better in one system of thought than I do in another.

The Concept of original sin. Inherited Sin. Is of course absent in the Far Eastern Regions. This simple fact has led many to erroneously think they do not understand The "true Nature" of man.

Their concept speaks more clearly to me. They see man as having a duel nature.

An Animal nature that is no more good nor evil than your cats nature or your dogs, it is simply our nature down from the trees and up from the caves, it's who we were before we were men.

The monkey mind to which we own our very existence. In The East he can be quite a wonderful and adventurous fellow, not to feared, but difinitly to be tamed and controlled if he is ever to be of service to our second nature.

The Nature we revived from heaven. The nature not predicted by anything that happed here on earth before we revived the light and knew that we are.

And that part of us forever separates us from nature. But can never separate us from our our basic nature. That is not it's job.

Here's our job as see by me.":O}

We are here to perfect, each of us, one single animal nature. By placing ourselves with humility benight Gods creation, Not this body, but this nature that is foundation from the caves and raising it up...some say to the heaven themselves.

We are call to deliver to "Him" one perfected animal nature, ourselves as he created us to be, no more and no less...

But man's heaven nature has it's susceptibilities as well. We can be seduced! LOL

For all of life is about seduction! Our animal natures can rise up and overwhelm us, drowning us in their passions. Our true natures become clouded by contact with earthly things, for we are of this earth!

Not all men have a heavenly nature. What is bone of the Earth relates to and responds to the nature of this world.

What is born of heaven relates to and responds to the commands of heaven.

Cats are not evil for not having a Nature that contemplates good and evil. They are just cats.The same is true of men. Very fine men have lived and died and never looked up. And never looked within. It simply wasn't in their natures.

We are here to take what is low (NOT bad) what is low within ourselves and raise it up . We are here to imbue our animal natures with our heavenly spirits and to return them to god, a nature transformed by the spirit we revived from heaven.

This is the process of outgoing and returning spirits. We can think of ourselves as little dippers dropping down from the heavens scooping up an animal nature and transforming it before returning it to it's source, before we return to our source...

We are here to love ourselves and help others do the same. Honestly, love is a switch on an enormous incomprehensible machine. Throw that switch and the entire world transforms it's self back into the divine realm you were bore into...

Before you were lost in the contact with Earthy things....":O}

As for war and human corruption and depravity,...it is a terrible thing to see and man whose nature has degenerated. Who instead of redeeming his natural self drags it down into very perversion of his life.

These men are delusional. They follow neither their higher nature neither do they follow their lower natures. For even our lower nature may be followed safely when we love. They are of the scribs and Pharisees and We need not concern ourselves with them as they can only hinder our progress.

As with everything I say or write it is not original and

"All praise be to Alla Only the mistakes are my own."
Maclom X
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 3rd October, 2012 at 09:32 PM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 30th September, 2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Aedan;519943]I'm guessing you meant "master" rather than "mater" (mother) as it was in response to my text. Yes, he is the Master of the law. After all, who else knows the law inside and out like He does? (See below)
Yes.":O}

Yet they who know the law and not the spirit...what do they know of him? Nothing.

Well to be very frank, the Devil, nobody knows law like the lawless.

But they cannot fulfill it. Love Fulfills the law and destroys the law as a place for the lawless to hide. The law points to the meaning. Once you have the meaning you may throw away the law, for in Loving the law is fulfilled and in fulfillment is no more. (See below. far below, the very end in fact ":O}


Quote:
Why? Because the law was given to show mankind that they could never hope to be self-righteous. If you look back to where the law was originally given, and then go back a chapter, you'll find that there is a nation that says (in my paraphrase!) "Bring it on God, we can do whatever you ask us to". In the KJV, it's rendered "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do". That's man boasting he can do it in his own strength.
I accept you view on this. But as you can see we are diverging... WHEEE!!! LOL


Quote:
He is not worshipping the law. He gave the law so that man could see that all their self efforts would never be able to match up to the perfection demanded in the law. The law is designed to bring men to the end of themselves, to see that they are unable to do it themselves. The design of it is to show man that he needs a saviour. It was never intended to be fulfilled. Those who attempt to fulfill it only seal their own destruction by their own judgement.
And yet there he is stuck every time with his own judgment. You are only Christian by your own judgment. Here's what I don't like about this. This has God creating cripples so he can heal them.

This is an explanation of our barbarity but there are other explanations that don't have God blaming the innocent for what happened before they were born. it just doesn't make sense to me. For me this is a darkness that has crept into the Christian mind set at an early period and should be discarded. As many Christian texts have been over the years and Christianity is mostly better for it.

This would posit an unreasonable God who demands what we can't deliver. does that sound right to you?

It also sounds un natural and unproductive in the good. I think it's just wrong. That is, you've got the texts right, I just think they are wrong.

Yet I'm here to strive in love, not to be right. If he wanted me right he would have made me a lawyer and despised me. Only Lawyers get to be right.":O}

We get to exam the texts with open hearts and then try to discern what is most like the image we carry in our hearts of "Him". Let us beware! He just might has given us all different photos of himself! ":O}

Quote:
If that is the case, why is the last part of the verse "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil"? Fulfillment of the law is not its destruction.
[/QUOTE]

Watch the Chick destroy the egg and leave it behind without a care. It contained all that was to be, before it became life, now for the chick to carry it around with it would only be a deformity.

Consider the Acorn before it opens into the oak...you get the picture...":O}

Did he also say that the law was made for man, (Training wheels) not man to serve the law? He is the fulfillment of the law. Serve the fulfillment, not the law, the law only points,guides, love fulfills. When you love the law is fulfilled and destroyed reshapes itself in a living way to every moment. Gods love places us beyond, in a higher place than his judgment ever could. This is, I believe, his Desire.

You see if the prince of peace comes in love he can not then come to me in judgment. For I shall fear judgment and doubt his love. He never come to judge me only to help me. Sometimes to show me my error and strengthen me to change it. For when it is time for me to make a change, the strength always come with the time.
And what did he say was the WHOLE of the law? ":O}
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

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Last edited by Daniel ~; 30th September, 2012 at 10:35 AM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 1st October, 2012, 09:18 AM
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I'm not so sure that we're as diverging as you think we might be.

From my perspective (which is all I can offer), Law will not be destroyed until it has accomplished all that it was designed to accomplish. It is written "no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are." The KJV renders this as "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Quote:
This would posit an unreasonable God who demands what we can't deliver. does that sound right to you?
No, that doesn't sound right, and most definitely isn't what I was trying to communicate. We have a choice. We can condemn ourselves by trying to be right ourselves, or we can be free to be who we are by accepting that we cannot make ourselves right, and that God Himself made a way for us. Now, the incredible thing about this is that it transcends time - even those who came before the cross and resurrection are included. In fact, Paul even writes "God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus."

The Prince of Peace only comes in judgement if you yourself choose that judgement, by refusing to accept that you are unable to make yourself good enough. There is a freedom in accepting our helplessness to change ourselves.

Quote:
This has God creating cripples so he can heal them.
Yes - does the potter not have the right to create whatever he wishes to create? There is a small passage that I find intriguing when Jesus' disciples asked him about a blind man. He answered " It was not because of his sins or his parents? sins,? Jesus answered. ?This happened so the power of God could be seen in him." Make of that what you will.

Quote:
Did he also say that the law was made for man
In this case, what was He referring to? At the time, it was in response to healing on the Sabbath, the time when man should be resting. It's interesting to note how many healings happened on the Sabbath. Could there be a connection between rest and receiving? Perhaps a connection between stopping our striving and discovering who we are created to be?

Again, from my perspective, I am most like who I am meant to be when I'm not trying to be something or trying to please other people, when I'm not striving to achieve something. Otherwise, I'm just focused on achieving that something, or trying to please that person to the detriment of others.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 1st October, 2012, 07:36 PM
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Please forgive me if I continue to pick points of focus to address seemingly at random from your writings. As I'm sure you realize we simply don't have the lifespan that would permit all thoroughness...":O}

Quote:
Law will not be destroyed until it has accomplished all that it was designed to accomplish.
Absolutely! The Chick is protected by the shell, requires it to live! It is only when the yoke is set and life begins to move freely within that it MUST be discarded.

Yet each Chick emerges in it's own time. It can not wait for the others, or leap to freedom when they do...it must await it's own time.

Quote:
We can condemn ourselves by trying to be right ourselves, or we can be free to be who we are by accepting that we cannot make ourselves right, and that God Himself made a way for us.
Here I depart slightly from Christian thought to ask "How sure are we that we were made imperfectly? Are not the heavens perfect and without flaw?

Are not our Oceans perfect from his hands? When a healthy babe enters the world...are the words upon our lips, perfect, perfection!

When heaven and Earth come together for the first time (in Man) the meeting is full of difficulties. Heavenly and Earthly natures are both from the same hand.

But there is an inherit difference in elevation. Heaven Must rule. Often a battle ensues doing injury to both sides, our Earthly natures are WILD and wild things do not come easily under yoke. But Heaven NEEDS the strength of our Earthly natures, It requires PASSION and energy to grasp the truths of life.

When things go well man masters these inherit conflicts between high and low. In his mastery he achieves the great middle. Where extremes cancel one other out and the middle emerges..

I in all humility would advance that he made us no less perfect. We need not acquire perfection, we must instead leave it to it own natural development.
We can acquire knowledge, we can acquire skills, but No man can acquire perfection...Yet on the day that you were born they murmured..."perfection..."
__________________
"Though all men live in ignorance before mystery,
they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

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Last edited by Daniel ~; 1st October, 2012 at 07:47 PM.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 2nd October, 2012, 05:07 PM
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Are the oceans perfect? Are the heavens perfect? They are good (as in excellent/agreeable) but good is not the same as perfect. You paint a picture of a war between heaven and earth. I see a war between principalities and powers in both the heavenly realm and earthly realm.

We differ here, as you see the law that is something that is abolished on an individual level, where I see the law remaining in existence until the old heaven and old earth pass away. The chick does not live in its shell for its whole life. Yet it is proclaimed that "until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished." That "all things" in the Greek means "everything", "all encompassing". Therefore, the law continues to exist. The law is not a shell - it does not offer protection to anyone (and how could it?). It can only offer condemnation, which seems to me to be the opposite of protection.

From where I'm sitting, I can only see that "balance" means the loss of everything. New wine in old wineskins if you like. Man has been working to master for many years. Does it bring man any closer to the goal? No, he falls in exactly the same way he has always fallen. He is simply not capable, and never will be.
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Old 2nd October, 2012, 06:53 PM
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Are the oceans perfect? Are the heavens perfect? They are good (as in excellent/agreeable) but good is not the same as perfect. You paint a picture of a war between heaven and earth. I see a war between principalities and powers in both the heavenly realm and earthly realm.
Oh no! I don't see a war! There is a hierarchical order that prevents it. The High is absolutely high and the low cannot in-crouch upon it. God is Supreme is all the verses...":O}

What there can be and is, in my view of things, is rebellion. a refusal of the low to accept the high and follow.

As to our beautiful oceans... they are from the hand of God like you and me and what comes from the Great Maker always bears his mark...perfection...

We sleep to our perfection now as we are spirits mediated by matter, we know existence as we pass thought time. Temporal beings, creatures of time.

In the mythos, when Satan fell, it created a very interesting moment... a moment it time. Satan fell not just from God, but from the Eternal into the Temporal... From everlasting to having a shelf life.

Angels are pure spirits un meditated by nature, by matter.

When you make a mistake, you can paused before you act. For you act in time. If you make a mistake, you can realize it because you have not change in your essential nature, your still you and you can make corrections, you can repent.

In the mythos Satan was the Morning Star, God's first creation.When he rebelled he became something other than what God created, His very essence was perverted, The Eternal cannot be squeeze into the Temporal. And in only time does the possibility of saying no to God arise. To rebel the Morning Star had to become a creature of time.He threw away the eternal to satisfy hid desire and became locked into what he had to become to say no to god.

Satan truly fell. He he so much less than he was. And...he will die.

Satan fell in a moment of time so short it cannot be measured, he was over and other in a flash. Hell is not Gods punishment. Hell is what Satan became in order to say no to god.

We were given such a gift! We may err, we may make mistakes and still be received by heaven. For we can repent. There was nothing left in Satan that had such grace.

Quote:
We differ here, as you see the law that is something that is abolished on an individual level, where I see the law remaining in existence until the old heaven and old earth pass away. The chick does not live in its shell for its whole life. Yet it is proclaimed that "until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished." That "all things" in the Greek means "everything", "all encompassing". Therefore, the law continues to exist. The law is not a shell - it does not offer protection to anyone (and how could it?). It can only offer condemnation, which seems to me to be the opposite of protection.
When the chick hatches, when a loving spirit emerges from the law it fulfills the law. It is the reason the law was laid down, that the chick might emerge.

Each Chick breaks though in it's own time. None wait upon the others, each has it's own clock ticking, each clock set to a slightly different time.

This is my view. However you are not alone in your view.":O} The Buddhist think that there is no independent separate existence. We are all in this together until the last man finds his proper end.

Not I think quite what you are saying, but in the general direction.":O}

This is my Jazz. This is where I create most happily.I don't see what I do as laying down great truths, rather I see myself as playing with the forms as they naturally arise within me.

I see me as being "At play in the fields of the Lord."

I really don't know if I write the truth... I only know for sure that it comes from whatever is true within me.

(Quick hide! Hide comes God! He likes to try and find us! LOL)
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
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Old 2nd October, 2012, 11:18 PM
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While I was taking my walk, this came to me...

We are perfect as every tree is perfect. Imperfect only arises when we speak of a purpose. Is this tree close grained enough, straight enough pliable enough for our purpose. Purpose is good and a discriminating awareness arises with purpose and they refine each other and re-define each other. Purpose shapes thought and thought re-shapes purpose.

Purpose, a willful intention. That which is served by our labor. So....Purpose arises with and falls with an individual intention. It does not live of it self out there in the world... it is something that arose within life...intention, an undertaking, an achievement, these things are our things, they belong with us.

But they don't live out there in our world, they live in here with us. They are things we bring, for good or ill, to the party!

Once when my teacher saw I was pissed off about something, he just looked at me as I ranted. then said Daniel, there is nothing wrong with this world, if you think there is you had better look again.

I've been looking again ever since. The world is perfect, it just doesn't give a damn about our purpose, it cares nothing for our intentions, it's equality is on another plane from the music of noble intentions.

In the Movie Avatar the Wise woman's daughter hears the prayers of a distraught human. She comforts him, but then wisely counsels that Nature doesn't work like that. She doesn't take sides, she protects only the balance." Wise words indeed.

Every tree is perfect until you want to cut one down. Every fish living perfection until you want to eat one.

This magical thing within our heads that formulates intentions, this "self" nobody can find in the laboratory, so this ghost in the machine riding around in a meat suit

Looking for an invisible God nobody can find in the laboratory. Ghosts in white coats who can not find the great spirit...in their test tubes Tell me God does not laugh!

Once we step outside our intentions, everything settles and the great way opens.

A path men walked before they were men. a path they walked to become men. A way of being that nourishes becoming. The path is still there, we are still walking it.These are my footprints upon the earth.

There are said to be two guides along the path, disciplined understanding and innocence...

They say both are needed to complete the journey for as the energy carries the law, the law regulates the energy.

We need the innocence of a child to be ourselves free of attachments to this and that, free of hoping for this out come dreading that. so we can partake of the equanimity of life! This is the energy, the source of all that is, innocence best describes that which made us.

We also need to be quite astute when it comes to understanding the natures of our monkey minds (Quite literally Monkey minded)

This is the law that must regulates the energy, Monkey must be limited. a Conscience and untiring effort must be made to get monkey to behave, this ironically enough is a job best suited to innocence. When innocences tames no creature rebells. For innocences asks nothing of you. Beware of that which asks nothing of you...it usually commands of you everything! LOL


Well that's a pretty good walk about...may have crossed a few wires here and there, the worlds an awfully lot to try and understand...":O}
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
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Old 3rd October, 2012, 10:36 AM
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I know that we're not going to agree, but it's often interesting to see the journeys that people have come on. I am happy that I don't need to strive to change myself - which is something I know I can't do in my own strength anyway, as I've tried often enough. It's been interesting learning to let go of things, rather than try to hold on and direct. Strangely in doing so, I've discovered that the impact of what I do seems to be much larger than when I am holding on. For my understanding, this is unmerited, undeserved grace in action in my life.
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Old 3rd October, 2012, 06:24 PM
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It is my feeling that you have an understanding that will... Get you to the church on time.":O}

I don't believe God created any freeways, Even JC said he came not for the many, but for the few. Our paths are like ourselves and must reflect us as people or we are not on our path.

If you feel at ease with your path then it is undoubtedly the right path for you. You follow, when it becomes folly to go on, you should follow. When night comes again with all the doubts and fears we must overcome to go on... Cling to your path, it was created to lead you home.

Blessings...":O}
__________________
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they need not live in darkness...
Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
DKE

"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

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Old 4th October, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
It is my feeling that you have an understanding that will... Get you to the church on time.":O}
To be honest I'm rarely at church on time! I've found that it's not where relationships are forged nor where life matters are discussed. The pub/bar/restaurant/home is a better place for that. Food and drink feature fairly heavily in that kind of thing.
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Old 4th October, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Here...now...you surprise me! LOL

Here...now...we are in complete agreement! Please regard my previous comment as reflecting the quality of your stance rather than it's actual location in space and time...":O}
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
Richard Wilbur

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