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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 17th September, 2012, 06:53 PM
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A re-boot to the other side

This post exist for one reason only....to point a finger and to snear...Small of me I know, but god works though the small to move the moment along...":O}

This just strikes me as so wrong...

From Nividia on installing their Graphic cards:

"Software Installation
When you boot up your computer for the first time after installing your new graphics card, Windows may detect a
new display device and attempt to install the drivers. If it gives you the option to cancel, please do so, otherwise
wait for Windows to complete the installation (a reboot may be necessary).
After this process has been completed, it is necessary to install the recommended drivers for your graphics card.
To begin, insert the EVGA Installation DVD/CD and allow the autorun driver installation menu to start."

This is like waiting for a senile Grand parent to complete some ritual, whose reason for being is long forgotten,.. lost in the repetition and to age...
but must be carried out, lest they lose all temperament and throw a fit. People have been installing Nvidia drivers in this way as long as their has been an Nvidia. Why Can't Windows learn when to butt out? Why after all these YEARS, approaching decades, why does whim-Blows still try to mess up your driver install, WHY?

And More to the point, Why can't Whim-blows properly install a Graphics card? With far far less experience and lifespan, Mint 13 does, IT JUST DOES.

Welcome to Windows! ":O}

P.S.

I've left a space below, well actually I've left near infinite space below for others (Aedan) to demonstrate to me in far greater detail and clarity what I said in the beginning...This Really IS very small of me....LOL
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Old 17th September, 2012, 07:25 PM
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Oh! Wait! There's MORE!

"Note: If the autorun driver installation menu does not appear, it can be launched manually by clicking on the
“Computer” or “My Computer” icon, and double clicking the icon for your DVD/CD drive. After that double click on
the “autorun.exe” file.
Once the autorun installation menu appears, select the “Install Video Drivers” button. This will start the driver
installation process.
Note: During installation, you may be prompted by the Microsoft WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Labs) warning,
please select the “Continue” or “Install this driver software anyway” option, as it is safe to do so."

Whim Blows still does this!?
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Old 18th September, 2012, 12:10 AM
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Before we go any further what version of Windows are you using?
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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Old 18th September, 2012, 04:56 AM
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These are Nvidia instructions for all windoz...I would feel terrible if Nvidia let them get out of date! How awful for MS!

So like has Wim-blows finally learned to install Nvidia drivers rather than block the process?
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Old 18th September, 2012, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
From Nividia on installing their Graphic cards:
Have you actually attempted to install a video card on a version of Windows that's newer than XP? If not, I'd suggest that you are in no place to make comments about something you know nothing about. On the other hand, perhaps you'd like to tell me how you install the nVidia driver in a version of Linux from the same period as XP (2001).

If you're going to gloat and smear, then make sure you get the right company, because those are NOT nVidia's instructions at all! Those appear to have come from a third party manufacturer (EVGA), and appear to be an old version of their instructions.

Just so you know, if you install a new nVidia card in your computer on a version of Windows that's less than twelve years old, you turn the machine off, insert the card, turn it back on. The machine sorts itself out with a working display driver, which you can upgrade easily and without fuss.

If you want to know what nVidia's instructions actually are, then they're as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nVidia Windows Installation Instructions
1 Follow the instructions on the NVIDIA .com Web site driver download page to locate the appropriate driver to download, based on your hardware and operating system.
2 From the driver download page, click the Download button. The Download Confirmation page appears.
3 If you agree to the "License For Customer Use of NVIDIA Software", click the Agree & Download button to begin the download. The File Download dialog appears.
4 Either click Save to save the file and then run it from your PC, or click Run. An extraction path dialog appears prompting you to specify where on your PC you want the driver files to be installed.
5 Click OK to use the default location, or click the folder icon and specify an alternate location to install the driver files. The files are extracted and then the NVIDIA Installer is launched automatically.
6 At the License Agreement page of the Installer, click Agree and Continue.
7 Follow the instructions in the NVIDIA Installer to complete the installation.
By comparison, here are the nVidia installation instructions for Linux. This is from here. There's also separate instructions that you have to follow if you're running OpenSUSE linux - these are here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nVidia
This chapter provides instructions for installing the NVIDIA driver. Note that after installation, but prior to using the driver, you must complete the steps described in Chapter 6, Configuring X for the NVIDIA Driver. Additional details that may be helpful for the new Linux user are provided in Appendix J, Tips for New Linux Users.

Before you Begin

Before you begin the installation, exit the X server and terminate all OpenGL applications (note that it is possible that some OpenGL applications persist even after the X server has stopped). You should also set the default run level on your system such that it will boot to a VGA console, and not directly to X. Doing so will make it easier to recover if there is a problem during the installation process. See Appendix J, Tips for New Linux Users for details.

If you're installing on a system that is set up to use the Nouveau driver, then you should first disable it before attempting to install the NVIDIA driver. See Q & A 8.1, ?Interaction with the Nouveau Driver? for details.

Starting the Installer

After you have downloaded the file NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-304.43.run, change to the directory containing the downloaded file, and as the root user run the executable:

# cd yourdirectory
# sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-304.43.run
The .run file is a self-extracting archive. When executed, it extracts the contents of the archive and runs the contained nvidia-installer utility, which provides an interactive interface to walk you through the installation.

nvidia-installer will also install itself to /usr/bin/nvidia-installer, which may be used at some later time to uninstall drivers, auto-download updated drivers, etc. The use of this utility is detailed later in this chapter.

You may also supply command line options to the .run file. Some of the more common options are listed below.

Common .run Options

--info
Print embedded info about the .run file and exit.

--check
Check integrity of the archive and exit.

--extract-only
Extract the contents of ./NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-304.43.run, but do not run nvidia-installer.

--help
Print usage information for the common commandline options and exit.

--advanced-options
Print usage information for common command line options as well as the advanced options, and then exit.

Installing the Kernel Interface

The NVIDIA kernel module has a kernel interface layer that must be compiled specifically for each kernel. NVIDIA distributes the source code to this kernel interface layer.

When the installer is run, it will check your system for the required kernel sources and compile the kernel interface. You must have the source code for your kernel installed for compilation to work. On most systems, this means that you will need to locate and install the correct kernel-source, kernel-headers, or kernel-devel package; on some distributions, no additional packages are required.

After the correct kernel interface has been compiled, the kernel interface will be linked with the closed-source portion of the NVIDIA kernel module. This requires that you have a linker installed on your system. The linker, usually /usr/bin/ld, is part of the binutils package. You must have a linker installed prior to installing the NVIDIA driver.

The installer will check for the presence of DKMS on your system. If DKMS is found, you will be given the option of registering the kernel module with DKMS, and using the DKMS infrastructure to build and install the kernel module. On most systems with DKMS, DKMS will take care of automatically rebuilding registered kernel modules when installing a different Linux kernel.

Not all kernel configurations are supported by DKMS: for example, DKMS does not support kernels built with separate KBUILD source and output directories. If nvidia-installer is unable to install the kernel module through DKMS, the installation will be aborted and no kernel module will be installed. If this happens, installation should be attempted again, without the DKMS option.

Note that versions of nvidia-installer shipped with drivers before release 304 do not interact with DKMS. If you choose to register the NVIDIA kernel module with DKMS, please ensure that the module is removed from the DKMS database before using a non-DKMS aware version of nvidia-installer to install an older driver; otherwise, module source files may be deleted without first unregistering the module, potentially leaving the DKMS database in an inconsistent state. Running nvidia-uninstall before installing a driver using an older installer will invoke the correct dkms remove command to clean up the installation.

Features of the Installer

Without options, the .run file executes the installer after unpacking it. The installer can be run as a separate step in the process, or can be run at a later time to get updates, etc. Some of the more important commandline options of nvidia-installer are:

nvidia-installer options

--uninstall
During installation, the installer will make backups of any conflicting files and record the installation of new files. The uninstall option undoes an install, restoring the system to its pre-install state.

--latest
Connect to NVIDIA's FTP site, and report the latest driver version and the url to the latest driver file.

--update
Connect to NVIDIA's FTP site, download the most recent driver file, and install it.

--ui=none
The installer uses an ncurses-based user interface if it is able to locate the correct ncurses library. Otherwise, it will fall back to a simple commandline user interface. This option disables the use of the ncurses library.
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Old 18th September, 2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Note: During installation, you may be prompted by the Microsoft WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Labs) warning,
please select the ?Continue? or ?Install this driver software anyway? option, as it is safe to do so."
Yup, this means that Windows performs code signing, which is a good thing, despite the fact that you're trying to make it a negative point. Code signing is a very useful technique. Think of it like SSL - with SSL it gives you some assurance that the website you're talking to is from who you think it's from. For code, it provides the same assurance that the code you're running is from who you think it's from.

Strangely enough, even Linux recognises the power of code signing, but not for executable files, which is actually really frustrating. In terms of throwing an error most Linux distros (Debian/Ubuntu/Mint/Gentoo/Fedora and so on) do exactly the same thing when you give them a package that is not signed. It's both protection against malicious tampering of packages/drivers (less common) and against corruption of the files (more common). That's a pretty sensible thing to do.

If you're going to make a big deal out of the fact that EVGA didn't bother signing some drivers, then blame that on EVGA, not on Microsoft.

Now, on code signing executables, remind me how Linux handles that again would you? Last I saw was something from 2005.
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Old 18th September, 2012, 09:46 PM
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OMG! My Bad those were EVGA instructions! Yet however outdated, they are current.

As unfair as I was prepared to be in my post, this was a genuine mistake. Only EVGA ever had this problem! ":O}

Here are what I would presume to be (can't actually find any, not having looked, finding them would only limit me to the facts....) Mint 13 and Bodhi Driver instructions.

1.Open "Additional Drivers" Say yes you want some.
2. Sip Mint Juleps while it runs off into the fields of cyber to get you some.
3. Take your pick of Drivers and Activate.
4 Refill you Mint Glass while Re-booting.

Now I've admitted to a certain horrible unfairness that may just have formed the very foundation of my post...And really we all just want to be "fair" with MS... So I apologize for bringing up a past so distant as to no longer have any bearing on the MS of today.

Where's that Turn off the Tablet interface switch again...? ":O}

And your right, completely, I haven't Seen a Win-doz desktop Since MS drove me from NT. Yet I hear things...I hear the same things I heard when I was In NT. Perhaps My bias does at times go deeper than my humor. If so I regret that.

There you have my confession...

Now you tell me MS has changed, that MS has become a positive force for Good and for change in the World. That it has matured beyond the purely selfish and greedy and has learned to practice a higher standard of behavior...

And I'll lay off MS. Hell I might even buy a copy. It would absolutely make my life easier in games!!

I do understand that your defense was of Win-doz, not of MS. Do you understand that my attach was upon an attitude that allowed the Drivers situation to persist as long as I was in Windows OS's?

The Table Desk top situation, indicates to me that MS and their creation has change remarkably little. Who Asked for this desk-top? Who even likes it?

Yet when MS had the opportunity to give users a choice (Exited in the Beta or so I read) they removed it. Users MUST use a tablet MS says so!

You you tell me that the MS driver situation of the past is NOT indicative of the MS today and no longer reflects their current attitude and I'll tell you I'm sorry I created this post.
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Old 19th September, 2012, 12:49 AM
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Tablets are the future. Surface can have an advanced keyboard magnetically attached and it becomes a laptop. You need to think out of the box to understand what they have done with surface otherwise you don't get it and you can't really criticise it. Might not be perfect and may occasionally crash until errors will be corrected but its a technical advance in many ways.
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Old 19th September, 2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
OMG! My Bad those were EVGA instructions! Yet however outdated, they are current.

...

Do you understand that my attach was upon an attitude that allowed the Drivers situation to persist as long as I was in Windows OS's?
Sorry Dan, they're not even EVGA's current instructions - Take a quick look at EVGA's web site.

Leaving aside the issue with the tablet interface, which isn't something I care for (there is a choice, you don't have to buy Windows 8). Your experience with drivers is twelve years old. You sing the praises of Linux in 2012, and say it's much better than Windows was 2000. Guess what, that's entirely true. It's also true that Linux in 2012 is much better than Linux was in 2000. If you want to know what you had to do to install the nVidia graphics driver in Linux in 2000, then read this.

To be honest, back in 2000, you were doing pretty well if you even managed to get Linux installed on the hard disk, let alone actually booted. It wasn't unusual for the installer for whatever distro you were using to die with some error before it had finished.

Don't get me wrong, Linux has come a long long way. So has Windows.

Do I care for MS? No more than I'd care for any other corporate. Their reason for existing is to "provide value" for their shareholders - or in English, to make money for their shareholders. Sometimes that means what they do is aligned with their customers, sometimes that means what they do is aligned against their customers. If you're expecting a corporate to be a "positive force for Good and for change", then I think you've forgotten why the corporate exists.

I've been hearing lots about how open source is a "positive force for Good", but I see lots of nasty bickering about how to do things. I see devs shouting down at users that they're idiots and they should learn to write their own code if they want something fixed. I see big egos riding roughshod over others, because they can get to do what they want to do regardless of the cost to others. "open source" has become an ideology, a religion, and we all know what happens when something becomes a religion.

For me, it affirms that it doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it, the human heart is fallen. It doesn't matter if it's corporate or open source, people are in it for themselves.

My feeling is that MS has passed its peak now, and is unlikely to regain the dominant position it used to have. On the other hand, Apple seems to doing a pretty good job of being the new MS, and more aggressively too.
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Old 19th September, 2012, 03:21 PM
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"For me, it affirms that it doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it, the human heart is fallen. It doesn't matter if it's corporate or open source, people are in it for themselves."

Just like animals, must be God's image projected in us that's faulty!
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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Old 19th September, 2012, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbard View Post
"For me, it affirms that it doesn't matter how you slice it or dice it, the human heart is fallen. It doesn't matter if it's corporate or open source, people are in it for themselves."

Just like animals, must be God's image projected in us that's faulty!
Some are some aren't. You decide which you will be.
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Old 19th September, 2012, 09:03 PM
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To Aedan:
I must first apologize. I posted a quote without attributing it's source. Now, after a fresh re-install or restore every day for the past 5 days, I can't in the lease say where I got that quote in question.
I think I downloaded a manual from either Nvidia or EVGA, but it's gone and I can't say.

It does however represent the driver situation that persisted the entire time I used windows. Dated now I know. But the attitude behind it lives on in the tablet desktop.

I believe I have said before that I'm willing to concede Windows (for the sake of argument and for all I know) is the Superior OS. It might just be!

I see that as irrelevant. I do from time to time post complaints about Windoze, but were it not for MS, it be just another promising destro to me, I'd certainly want to see it.

For me this is about a different kind of source code, Mine and theirs. Mine inherently rejects theirs. I reject anything that exist merely to make money without concern for consequence.

MS is simply Corporate America going about it daily business, without the slightest concern for anything beyond the bottom line. It's as unintelligent as it's power allows it to be.

So it's MS as it represents Corporate Earth That I reject.

If a Google OS was Greatness itself, it would still just be MS under a another name playing the same game. Mostly the same "shareholders"

Wealth travels in ever smaller circles when consequences are ignored. If they ever looked ahead or behind they would see that when the circle closes upon itself it always reveals.... famine throughout the land.

I am apposed to unbridled capitalism, unbridled by a human understanding of the limitations this world places upon the acts of man.

Now, am I surprised that Linux Devs exhibit every fault I have!? Not really, I'm sure they got theirs from the same place I got mine.

Mine all grow out of my stubborn refusal to love this world as if it were all I had! ":O}

In not loving her I wanted only to take from her and control her; thereby all my faults became my own rather than a passing mistake.Corporations institutionalize all our faults and then give then POWER.

Where is the natural urge to help this world? It has been dragged down benighted the bottom line where no one asks what is right? How can we heal this world? For me this negligence IS HELL.

We don't ask because we already know, each of us already knows what we must do. The Devs already know what they must do.

Some will take up the fight, Some will face their own short comings with resolve and determination. Others will buy a portfolio without concern even if it contains death for their own town.

"I come not to bring peace unto this world, But a sword! To cleave father from son and brother from brother."

J.C on one of his better days.":O}

Sometimes I think I've been cut out of this world! That I'm hardly here with you at all.

Then I do my stumble walk though some of this forest that surrounds my home and I see, I see so much being perfected at my very feet! Prefect balance swaying above my head as each leaf and needle introduces itself to the breeze in infinite points of connection.

Then I think. My fellows are hardly with me at all! My fellows live in man's world, forgetful of Heaven and Earth.

Power can not do what I wish to see done. Power can not restore balance. Only humility can do that. Only humility can save us now and return us to our proper place BETWEEN Heaven and Earth...

Sorry, I never feel I'm giving you what you want to hear...It's just that this is all I have to give anyone! ":O}
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 19th September, 2012 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 19th September, 2012, 11:13 PM
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"I come not to bring peace unto this world, But a sword! To cleave father from son and brother from brother." J.C on one of his better days.":O}

He also is "remembered" saying "rise and walk, why limp?" Translated into modern language the final question would probably be "why lincs?"
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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Old 20th September, 2012, 01:00 AM
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"He who plays at life never amounts to anything."
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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Old 20th September, 2012, 01:23 AM
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"He who plays at life never amounts to anything."
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Justice is foundation and Mercy ETERNAL
."
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"All that we do is touched by Ocean
Yet we remain on the shore of what we know."
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Old 20th September, 2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
I believe I have said before that I'm willing to concede Windows (for the sake of argument and for all I know) is the Superior OS. It might just be!
Personally I don't consider any OS to be "superior", because they're just tools to achieve something - computer software is not an end to itself. For some things, I can get a task done faster in Linux than Windows, for other things I can get a task done faster in QNX than Linux.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
We don't ask because we already know, each of us already knows what we must do. The Devs already know what they must do.
Do we? My experience has shown me that a lot of people don't know what they should do, otherwise they wouldn't be wandering around in darkness. Most devs I've encountered are coding because they enjoy solving a problem.

Right, with that out of the way, we come to the real matters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
"I come not to bring peace unto this world, But a sword! To cleave father from son and brother from brother."

J.C on one of his better days.":O}
Be careful how you divide the covenants. So many people have fallen (including me) because they didn't recognise where or what the divide is. From my perspective, the church generally has failed to see the divide, and has spent many years teaching the law of Moses. Yet Paul calls this very law the "ministration of death" and "ministration of condemnation"! How is this possible? Could it be that so many have been hoodwinked?

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Originally Posted by Daniel ~ View Post
Then I think. My fellows are hardly with me at all! My fellows live in man's world, forgetful of Heaven and Earth.
I'm not sure that they're forgetful, but rather they have chosen. Look and listen carefully and I think that all nature tells a story. People have to have their ears and eyes open to hear, many people do not. Sometimes it takes a major event in people's lives before they step back and rethink where they are.

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Power can not do what I wish to see done. Power can not restore balance. Only humility can do that. Only humility can save us now and return us to our proper place BETWEEN Heaven and Earth...
The human heart is beyond saving on its own merits. It is bankrupt. No amount of humility from man can overcome the heart of man. It rises up with self-importance almost every time. In those brief interludes, good things can happen, before they are snatched away by the next uprising. History tells us a sad story.
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Old 20th September, 2012, 07:51 PM
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Do we? My experience has shown me that a lot of people don't know what they should do, otherwise they wouldn't be wandering around in darkness. Most devs I've encountered are coding because they enjoy solving a problem.
Yes they wander in darkness. But not because they can not see the light. Here the will is paramount. This is the region ruled by choice. They choose not to know, they refuse knowledge of their own hearts.

You never did a wrong thing that you did not know is wrong. You choose to forget, so that you might act according to desire. Purity is to will one thing. Desire is to will all things.

This is the horrible truth of our lives. We can choose to forget all we were born knowing of the Good. They choose to forget and now they wander in darkness...

So I type this words they may never be able to allow themselves to understand.

These words are a beacon to lead them home...I can't help anyone. But these words might one day lead someone home...So I type them when ever I can.

What has been ruined by man, can be made right again by man.

Quote:
Be careful how you divide the covenants. So many people have fallen (including me) because they didn't recognise where or what the divide is. From my perspective, the church generally has failed to see the divide, and has spent many years teaching the law of Moses. Yet Paul calls this very law the "ministration of death" and "ministration of condemnation"! How is this possible? Could it be that so many have been hoodwinked?
For me...in my current understanding of this The divide lies within our hearts. Will we lay down our lives for our brothers? Yeah, no penny ante game is this.

Will we sacrifice our lives to see the good is done? Will we let go of desire and pick up the dedication of the Cross? ( In Christian terms.)

This isn't a game of chicken! We not trying to see whose brave here! We are polling the human heart. We are looking into what love is capable of doing to with and for the human heart.

To worship a God of love is to rejoice in the spirit of man, for it is his spirit that worships or turns to bile. This is the divide for me...

Will I obey the law written upon my heart or will I follow every desire unto dissipation.

I have been commanded to be myself. Will I? There are so many estates in life, why accept the one my heart tells me I "Ought" to.

I was born a wanderer. I have rebelled and wept and screamed and cried, but in the end, I was born a wanderer. The only real choice I've ever had was this... Will I be myself or try to be another who does not have to wander?

Seems a pure choice doesn't? It's not. I can try to become who I am or...I can live as most of my fellows live, in pure fantasy....unsupported by the laws of life.

There is no place else to go! We MUST become who we really are or...dissipate in fantasy. Here's what God CAN'T do.

He can't change the universe to suit our fantasies. We, like the fantasies we manufacture, must be abandon. For "he/she" has a real universe to attend to.

If we do not participate in the "Real World" from where can our help come?

So I type these words that are not my own but come from me and are the expression of my heart...

Quote:
The human heart is beyond saving on its own merits. It is bankrupt. No amount of humility from man can overcome the heart of man. It rises up with self-importance almost every time. In those brief interludes, good things can happen, before they are snatched away by the next uprising. History tells us a sad story.
Here our understandings diverge. I understand the doctrine. But I embrace another.

For me and my teachers....

Man has received from Heaven a nature inherently Good. By devotion to this Divine spirit within him he may attain an unsullied innocence.

(For my teachers there is no virtue higher than...just to be an innocent...( I believe JC held this view as well.) and yet they recognize that innocence in this world is almost always a disaster! (Who know this better that one hung upon a cross?)

EVERYTHING PREYS upon the innocent....Yet we are commanded by our own hearts to regain what make us helpless in this world...we are commanded to follow our hearts and regain our innocence.

But this spirit becomes tarnished by contact with Earthly things. (For this is when desire starts to stir)

There-fore purification is needed that it might shine forth again in it's original clarity. What purifies the human heart? Only innocence has such power. Only opening what has been closed by the narrow focus of desire. innocence alone can do this. For it is our innocence that speaks most lovingly to GOD.

My life has been about reform, about making a return to what I once, in my mothers arms, knew to be true....
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Last edited by Daniel ~; 20th September, 2012 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 25th September, 2012, 09:48 AM
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"Man has received from Heaven a nature inherently Good. By devotion to this Divine spirit within him he may attain an unsullied innocence"

1. you misspelled innochance

2. across the pond we call it innopence!
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!

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Old 25th September, 2012, 12:32 PM
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In my opinion, in many ways the divide is simple. Are we humble enough to accept that no matter our strivings, we simply cannot achieve? If not, we will simply continue striving harder and harder. At some point, one of three things could happen:
  • We die - we lose everything, because it was never about our own efforts, despite what we thought. Our strivings mean nothing
  • We give up and wallow in desperation, because the task is impossible.
  • We give up and accept that task is impossible, but someone else did it for us, and that it was never about us in the first place. This means we have to swallow our pride

I am sure that others see things differently to me, but I'm not others - they can comment as they see fit.

For me, the idea of the law written onto one heart means that it is not really a concious decision - many people around the world already know this, for they are in love with another person. It is a love response - it ceases to be about what I decide I'm going to do, because I *want* to do it. This way, man is released from the desires of the physical body. Although even this isn't really an accurate way of putting it - I am in danger of appearing to be a gnostic here! Perhaps I should say released from the desires of the old man. (The Greek word is sarx, if you wish to look it up.)

But, unless someone comes to the end of themselves, how can they recognise that what they do is meaningless? My understanding is that the law is designed to achieve this. If we think we can carry out the law, who are we kidding? So often I see people watering it down to become something that is achievable. It is not, it was never meant to be, and it will never be achievable. Alas, man continues to kid himself that he can make it.

Once someone understands that they have come to the end of themselves, then they are open to the idea that actually, someone else is going to have to do it for them.

On innocence - our culture oft mistakes naivety for innocence. However, the concept of innocent still stands in a court of law, which is perhaps the more appropriate metaphor here. That is not the same as naivety.

From my perspective, man originally received a nature that was inherently good - in fact it was in the very image of God himself. However, we have inherited an estate that is crippled by debt, so much so that we cannot repay it. Thus, it is passed down from generation to generation. Children do not need to be taught to misbehave, instead they need to be taught to behave. For me, that makes it difficult to hold the view that we are born innocent.

In any case, how does one escape from such an inheritance? The same way that one tends to escape from the tax man - death. The same power that breaks contracts legally, instead of being something negative, becomes something positive.

Devotion is not enough - as if our efforts could obtain us anything! This isn't about what we do (I do wish churches would recognise this). From my perspective, following our own hearts, if our hearts have not been changed, will not lead to anything other than heartache. If you look at the law, anything that is clean is sullied by contact with the unclean. Alas, our efforts are under law, and we ourselves are unclean, so we cannot become clean. Only grace has the power to clean. For under grace, we see that that which is unclean is cleaned by that which is cleaned! Quite the opposite effect, I think you'll agree. Grace (and only grace) is that which can declare us innocent - we are back to the court metaphor again!
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Old 25th September, 2012, 01:28 PM
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" Children do not need to be taught to misbehave, instead they need to be taught to behave. For me, that makes it difficult to hold the view that we are born innocent."

...Erm, like "babies" in the animal world...

I think we just die and rot

I wish there was life after death but at the moment there isn't a single proof of that apart from wishful thinking and a thousand myths. However I met Santa Claus this very morning and he sends his best regards to AOAforums!
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I've heard that linux community came up with better implemented security in it's latest Linux Mint Gold version, it's actually preventing the user to log in, thus posing 0 risk in contamining the computer with malware! Well done to the open source community!


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